13:37:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:37:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-wcag2ict-irc
13:37:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:37:06 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:37:15 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
13:37:15 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:37:24 <ChrisLoiselle> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller , Chris Loiselle
13:37:33 <ChrisLoiselle> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:37:46 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
13:37:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
13:38:00 <ChrisLoiselle> regrets: Loic, Mitch
13:38:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:38:24 <Zakim> ok, ChrisLoiselle
13:38:49 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ Announcements
13:39:06 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ Issue 627: 2.4.2 Page Titled PR #626
13:39:18 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ Work through edits on 2.4.2 Page Title Issue 627 Google Doc
13:39:32 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ Analysis for SC language changes
13:39:35 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:50:17 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:57:58 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:12 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:00:37 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:09 <maryjom> scribe+
14:04:11 <Daniel> present+
14:05:14 <Daniel> q+ to say she should be good to go now
14:05:27 <maryjom> ack daniel
14:05:27 <Zakim> Daniel, you wanted to say she should be good to go now
14:05:34 <Daniel> ack me
14:05:42 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:45 <PhilDay> present+
14:05:47 <bruce> bruce has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:59 <bruce> zakim, agenda?
14:05:59 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:06:00 <Zakim> 1. Announcements [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:06:00 <Zakim> 2. Issue 627: 2.4.2 Page Titled PR #626 [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:06:00 <Zakim> 3. Work through edits on 2.4.2 Page Title Issue 627 Google Doc [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:06:00 <Zakim> 4. Analysis for SC language changes [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:06:08 <bruce> present+
14:06:13 <maryjom> present+
14:06:17 <Daniel> q+
14:06:17 <bruce> That's great about Jen!
14:06:44 <bruce> q+
14:07:14 <Daniel> ack me
14:07:14 <maryjom> q?
14:07:15 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:08:52 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:09:38 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:09:47 <bruce> Good to know that W3C publishing is not limited to one day per week!
14:09:49 <maryjom> PR 626: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/626
14:09:53 <GreggVan> q+
14:10:08 <PhilDay> agenda?
14:10:10 <maryjom> Google doc link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-U-EpohlWn5DzaG5kDGhuQIItYI5pCq_gCLFxLhcQH4/edit?usp=sharing
14:10:17 <PhilDay> zakim, take up item 2
14:10:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 627: 2.4.2 Page Titled PR #626 -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:11:10 <LauraM> LauraM has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:11:15 <LauraM> present+
14:11:30 <maryjom> chris: Mary Jo reviewed PR 627 a few days ago, Bruce and gregg also commented
14:12:14 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Name of document or within the document and where title would be appropriate?
14:12:16 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:12:44 <bruce> q+ to say please ignore what i have in the PR about using filename for titles on non-web documents
14:12:52 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:12:56 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:13:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: I think splitting non web documents and software would be right thing to do.
14:13:20 <maryjom> gregg: The title of the document is what is within the document.
14:13:33 <maryjom> ...not the file name.
14:13:52 <bruce> Most non-web documents support title metadata, and yes, I agree we should use title for non-web documents.
14:14:06 <maryjom> ...software cannot and the name of the software doesn't describe the topic or purpose.
14:15:10 <maryjom> ...We can't have a note to change the meaning of the SC. The SC language would have to change more substantively.
14:15:56 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:15:58 <maryjom> ...for documents it's almost always true that there is a title or some text that describes the topic or purpose of the document.
14:15:59 <bruce> Please ignore what I have in the PR about using filename for titles on non-web documents.  I didn't understand that I had the liberty to split documents from software.
14:16:00 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:16:00 <maryjom> ack gregg
14:16:06 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:16:06 <Zakim> bruce, you wanted to say please ignore what i have in the PR about using filename for titles on non-web documents
14:16:08 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:16:55 <maryjom> Bruce: Please ignore the text about the name of the document being used. All for splitting documents from software and treating them differently.
14:17:09 <PhilDay> q?
14:17:38 <maryjom> Gregg: Then we can say that the SC doesn't apply to software. The whole purpose is to label the window and software doesn't necessarily have windows.
14:17:43 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:17:55 <PhilDay> ack Mike_Pluke
14:17:55 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:18:24 <bruce> q+ to suggest switching to Google doc then
14:18:31 <maryjom> Mike: Gregg has said this the way this is understood by the group working on the EN 301 549
14:18:36 <maryjom> q?
14:18:58 <maryjom> ack bruce This addresses the PR and so we can switch to the Google document
14:19:05 <maryjom> q?
14:19:09 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:19:09 <Zakim> bruce, you wanted to suggest switching to Google doc then
14:19:20 <maryjom> bruce: This addresses the PR and so we can switch to the Google document
14:19:21 <ChrisLoiselle> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-U-EpohlWn5DzaG5kDGhuQIItYI5pCq_gCLFxLhcQH4/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.m7itzlcauhau
14:19:41 <maryjom> ...don't think note 1 makes sense any more for non-web documents.
14:21:01 <ChrisLoiselle> POLL: Do we agree as a group that 2.4.2 page title applies to non web documents and not for software? 1 for yes, 2 for no
14:21:09 <bruce> 1
14:21:12 <PhilDay> 1
14:21:16 <GreggVan> 1
14:21:16 <LauraM> 1
14:21:17 <maryjom> s/title/titled/
14:21:17 <Mike_Pluke> 1
14:21:22 <Sam> 1
14:21:25 <maryjom> 1
14:21:29 <ChrisLoiselle> 1
14:21:46 <bruce> s/This addresses the PR/We have addressed comments in the PR
14:23:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: In web, title is in reference to tab name.
14:23:37 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:23:46 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:23:54 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:24:14 <GreggVan> q+
14:24:20 <bruce> q+
14:24:31 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:24:55 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
14:26:03 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:26:55 <maryjom> Gregg: Want to make sure what we have in WCAG2ICT doesn't contradict what's in the understanding.
14:27:18 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:27:24 <maryjom> Bruce: Agree that Note 1 isn't needed.
14:27:59 <maryjom> Gregg: only 5-10% of Word users know where to put the title.
14:28:25 <PhilDay> q?
14:28:27 <maryjom> Bruce: The first line in a document isn't programmatically a title.
14:29:01 <maryjom> Gregg: AI can solve that and have a script to reliably pick up a title. If we're writing for the future.
14:29:14 <maryjom> Bruce & Gregg agree no note 1.
14:29:14 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:29:18 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
14:30:28 <maryjom> Question on the Google doc - word substitutions should you use "Non-web documents" or "Documents"?
14:30:48 <maryjom> gregg: Should be consistent with other SCs where we use "Non-web Documents"
14:31:05 <maryjom> s/Question/Chris: Question/
14:31:09 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:31:17 <maryjom> chris: Agree to remove Note 1.
14:31:43 <maryjom> Gregg: Does WCAG 2.2 have any notes in the original text?
14:31:51 <maryjom> Mary Jo: No, it doesn't
14:32:11 <maryjom> Gregg: For software do we need to provide a rationale?
14:32:31 <maryjom> Chris: Reads out the proposed text.
14:32:43 <Daniel> q+
14:33:25 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: For non web software, would possibly propose new SC?
14:33:33 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:34:00 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: We can propose substantial word substitutions per our charter.
14:34:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:34:15 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:34:16 <ChrisLoiselle> ... Window and unique per instance
14:35:10 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Introduction of views and windows. If a system has windows or views and if...then they should be X
14:35:15 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:35:16 <maryjom> gregg: Yes, you'd have to introduce the notion of Windows, but there could be a requirement   - if you can have different windows or screens that each have a unique name.
14:35:21 <maryjom> ack Daniel
14:35:26 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:35:49 <Sam> screens is a hardware based requirement?
14:36:20 <maryjom> There are a lot of people that say it's wrong that Software Titled isn't a requirement.
14:37:06 <maryjom> Daniel: The proposal saying it shouldn't be applied as written to non-web software. There may be some other way to say that.
14:37:39 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:46 <bruce> Good catch on "screens".
14:37:51 <Sam> q+
14:38:12 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:38:16 <maryjom> Gregg: "Screens" could be used so then the mobile aspect can get looped in.
14:38:16 <bruce> -1 to Daniel -- I think its very important to say "should not apply" without equivocation
14:38:18 <GreggVan> Where software is in an environment that supports windows or views (as in mobile apps) and there is a way to provide a programmatically determinable unique name for each,   each window or view is provided with a unique human readable view that can be used to distinguish them from each other.
14:38:22 <maryjom> q?
14:38:23 <GreggVan> q+
14:38:25 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:38:33 <PhilDay> q+ to suggest This SC may be difficult to apply to non-web software...
14:39:08 <bruce> PhilDay please something stronger than "difficult"
14:39:20 <LauraM> q+
14:39:20 <GreggVan>  Where software is in an environment that supports windows or pages/screens (as in mobile apps) and there is a way to provide a programmatically determinable unique name for each,   each window or view is provided with a unique human readable view that can be used to distinguish them from each other.
14:39:25 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:39:27 <maryjom> Sam: Bringing up "views" is a substantial change that would need some scaffolding - like definitions. We could simply go with more consistent text "problematic".
14:39:29 <bruce> i think i am okay with "problematic"
14:39:31 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:40:20 <GreggVan> Where software is in an environment that supports windows or pages/screens (as in mobile apps) and there is a way to provide a programmatically determinable unique name for each,   each window or page/screen is provided with a unique human readable name that can be used to distinguish them from each other.
14:40:23 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:40:23 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to suggest This SC may be difficult to apply to non-web software...
14:40:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:40:58 <maryjom> ack LauraM
14:41:14 <maryjom> Laura: We're making this more complicated for people.
14:41:21 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:41:25 <GreggVan> q+
14:41:29 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:41:29 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:41:44 <bruce> q+ to ask "fundamental alteration" rather than "problematic" ?
14:41:47 <ChrisLoiselle> From Gregg: Where software is in an environment that supports windows or pages/screens (as in mobile apps) and there is a way to provide a programmatically determinable unique name for each,   each window or page/screen is provided with a unique human readable name that can be used to distinguish them from each other.
14:42:14 <maryjom> Gregg: If we want to have a rationale, what I've put in IRC explains it.
14:42:52 <maryjom> Gregg: That way when a user wants to switch around there is a unique name that helps them choose the right window.
14:43:18 <maryjom> Laura: The more casual description is more understandable.
14:43:38 <GreggVan> q+
14:43:47 <maryjom> ...want to make sure the original intention is captured in an understandable way.
14:44:20 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:44:29 <bruce> q+ to ask "fundamental alteration" rather than "problematic" ?
14:44:38 <maryjom> ChrisLoiselle: May be able to add Gregg's explanation after the first paragraph in proposal 2 in the Google doc.
14:44:43 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:44:43 <Zakim> bruce, you wanted to ask "fundamental alteration" rather than "problematic" ? and to ask "fundamental alteration" rather than "problematic" ?
14:45:44 <maryjom> bruce: We should say something "clean" about it. Don't think the caveat of windowed environment should be included.
14:46:18 <maryjom> GreggVan There are things that don't have any window and the user can't switch between anything so a title isn't needed.
14:46:47 <maryjom> ...this is in there to support AT users.
14:46:47 <Sam> q+
14:46:58 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:47:13 <maryjom> If you're in an app that doesn't have but one screen, it doesn't make sense to require it.
14:47:17 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:47:17 <GreggVan>  For software  direct application of xxxxx is problemmatic.  We recommend  something along the line of Where software is in an environment that supports windows or pages/screens (as in mobile apps) and there is a way to provide a programmatically determinable unique name for each,   each window or page/screen is provided with a unique human readable name that can be used to distinguish them from each other.
14:47:27 <maryjom> ack sam
14:48:02 <bruce> q+ to say i don't agree product name need not be available for non-windowed softward
14:48:29 <maryjom> sam: This is the dance we have with how we phrase things. I don't think the Windows environment is covered anywhere.
14:48:42 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:48:52 <maryjom> ...There has to be some caveats where there isn't a windowed environment.
14:49:25 <GreggVan> q+
14:49:28 <maryjom> bruce: There's still a name - even on screens for ATMs where there are screens that really should have a name.
14:49:39 <maryjom> ...a product name
14:49:43 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:49:43 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:49:44 <Zakim> bruce, you wanted to say i don't agree product name need not be available for non-windowed softward
14:49:54 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:51:17 <maryjom> Gregg: For accessibility, the name is for the screen reader. For an ATM situation, is the name of the app or product necessary to use the product. Not really.
14:51:55 <maryjom> ...you may want to know what bank you're at, but that's not the name of the app.
14:52:02 <maryjom> q?
14:52:39 <bruce> q+
14:52:48 <maryjom> sam: Agree with Gregg. ATMs or Point-of-sale machines don't really need a name. The context of where it is used makes it obvious.
14:52:49 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:52:51 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:53:15 <GreggVan> q+
14:53:44 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:53:49 <maryjom> Bruce: Disagrees that when speech mode is turned on, the original screen may not be announced. Maybe a kiosk does multiple things and the user would need to know which aspect they're using.
14:54:02 <LauraM> q+
14:54:05 <maryjom> ...don't think this should be limited to windowing apps.
14:54:15 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:55:35 <maryjom> Gregg: Turn on speech and you're on the home screen. The existing requirements say the screen needs to be read. What's on the screen is never the name of the software, it's the name of the bank or the function you're doing. The name of the software wouldn't be helpful.
14:55:44 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:56:01 <bruce> bank name is name and is providing descriptive identification
14:56:40 <GreggVan> q+
14:57:06 <Daniel> q+
14:57:22 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
14:57:24 <maryjom> ack LauraM
14:57:30 <maryjom> LauraM "Never" is a broad statement. When speech is activated on a Kiosk, the screen saver (which has the bank info) will be gone and won't be spoken.
14:57:45 <maryjom> ...prefers the language is simpler without caveats.
14:57:50 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:58:07 <PhilDay> q+ to say closed systems are not a good example here - there is no way of swapping windows/apps/views/modes
14:58:28 <maryjom> Gregg: If the splash screen isn't spoken already then it's a failure that not all info on the screen is spoken.
14:58:54 <maryjom> ack Daniel
14:59:42 <maryjom> Daniel: On the web - topic or purpose may be able to be met by some software.
14:59:46 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:00:10 <maryjom> Chris: We'll have to continue formulating proposals in the Google doc for next week.
15:00:14 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:00:14 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to say closed systems are not a good example here - there is no way of swapping windows/apps/views/modes
15:00:31 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:00:47 <maryjom> PhilDay Closed systems aren't an appropriate application of this SC. You can't switch windows in a closed system.
15:03:20 <Daniel> s/On the web - topic or purpose may be able to be met by some software./On the web it's the page title which describes topic or purpose - this may be met by relying on other accessibility requirements in some software that doesn't have the ability to have titles.
15:03:35 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:04:03 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:04:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daniel, PhilDay, bruce, maryjom, LauraM, Mike_Pluke
15:04:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:04:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:04:11 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:04:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:04:25 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:04:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items