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12:56:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/30-matf-irc
12:56:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:49 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:56:50 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 30 April 2025
12:56:51 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:56:56 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 30 April 2025
12:57:01 <JJ> chair+
12:57:19 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:57:35 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.3 Focus Order
12:57:39 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum)
12:57:44 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.1 Info and Relationships
12:59:10 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
12:59:15 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
12:59:19 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
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13:02:09 <quintinb> present+
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13:02:53 <JJ> scribe: quintinb
13:03:02 <hdv> present+
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13:03:17 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
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13:03:37 <RacheleD> present+
13:03:48 <rachaely> present+
13:04:38 <quintinb> JJ WCAG2Mobile there has been a delay - perhaps next week there'll be a publication early May
13:04:44 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:04:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 2.4.3 Focus Order -- taken up [from JJ]
13:05:00 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-4-3-focus-order
13:05:03 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/35
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13:06:06 <Carol> present+
13:06:17 <Aash> present+
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13:06:59 <pauljadam> present+
13:07:45 <Aash> q+
13:07:50 <JJ> ack Aash
13:08:41 <quintinb> Aash From a design point of view - what if there are elements that cannot be used by (e.g. visual impairments) - for example maps
13:09:08 <quintinb> Sorry I couldn't capture the end of that - someone enabled translations on zoom and zoom stole my focus
13:09:13 <quintinb> Which is ironic
13:10:24 <JJ> sorry, just opened the transcript panel to keep track of all text
13:10:26 <quintinb> Aash maps iterate through focus which is not helpful for people with assistive technologies.
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13:10:43 <quintinb> pauljadam everything operable with a touch gesture needs to be focusable as well
13:10:45 <Detlev> q+
13:10:53 <Detlev> present+
13:11:14 <pauljadam> Put the map in a container with a name and VoiceOver can skip over it or to it
13:11:32 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:12:40 <quintinb> Detlev If I understand correctly - this is not specific to mobile. Maps can have 100's of dots, which can also be problematic due to grouping, it really depends what you do outside that map. I think it's difficult to tell without entire context
13:12:46 <pauljadam> On desktop you can make the map pins focusable with arrow keys like radio buttons rather than tab key so they can skip past faster with keyboard.
13:14:08 <Detlev> q+
13:14:20 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:15:05 <pauljadam> its often confused with reading order yes
13:15:07 <quintinb> Detlev Do we have concensus that focus order does refer to keyboard as opposed to swipe focus order (screen reader)
13:15:23 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-navigated-sequentially
13:15:40 <pauljadam> q+
13:16:25 <quintinb> @JJ it seems to apply to all
13:16:27 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:17:31 <quintinb> pauljadam I have a focus order test case: as a keyboard user that focus is moved to controls. For screen reader and switch you focus on everything, but keyboard you just get interactive elements. Other assistive tech can be used to test
13:19:01 <quintinb> Important note: Switch ordering and keyboard ordering is different on Android
13:19:14 <quintinb> Switch allows for focus of containers and has an additional menu
13:19:30 <Detlev> q+
13:19:32 <JJ> ACTION: If keyboard interface is replaced with accessibility interface, emphasize the focus logic / differences between keyboard/web and app behavior
13:19:39 <quintinb> (and actions, don't forget the actions - hidden from keyboard users)
13:19:43 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:20:24 <quintinb> Detlev to what extent do we take modifiers - they are quite common. Is there is a good way of securing focus order without modifiers?
13:21:00 <quintinb> TAB+X is the accessibility shortcut
13:21:09 <quintinb> I really dislike that
13:21:45 <quintinb> (or Z, but it's Tab as a modifier)
13:22:26 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:22:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:22:39 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-2-4-11-focus-not-obscured-minimum
13:22:44 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/52
13:23:20 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:23:29 <quintinb> "entirely hidden" - that is suspiciously gracious
13:23:30 <Jamie> present+
13:27:52 <pauljadam> q+
13:28:06 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:28:47 <quintinb> pauljadam I have a bad example in my ios ally techniques app. The bad modal allows keyboard focus to move behind, as well as sticky headers and footers
13:29:14 <Jamie> q+
13:29:33 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:29:48 <quintinb> Jamie Mostly curiosity - what is keeping use from voting on this?
13:31:18 <JJ> Do we agree to vote on the proposal: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/52#issuecomment-2358554411
13:31:26 <Jamie> +1
13:31:35 <JJ> In MATF's first draft of guidance, this SC's section will read as:
13:31:35 <JJ>     This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.4.11.
13:31:35 <JJ>     When a user interface component receives keyboard focus, the component is not entirely hidden due to author-created content.
13:31:35 <JJ>     Note 1
13:31:37 <JJ>     Where content in a configurable interface can be repositioned by the user, then only the initial positions of user-movable content are considered for testing and conformance of this Success Criterion.
13:31:37 <JJ>     Note 2
13:31:37 <JJ>     Content opened by the user may obscure the component receiving focus. If the user can reveal the focused component without advancing the keyboard focus, the component with focus is not considered hidden due to author-created content.
13:32:11 <pauljadam> +1
13:32:15 <Carol> +1
13:32:19 <Joe_Humbert> -1
13:32:22 <Aash> +1
13:32:23 <Detlev> 0
13:32:42 <quintinb> -1 We need a note saying there should be enough visible space to interact with the component?
13:32:48 <quintinb> Unless I am missing something
13:33:06 <rachaely> +1
13:33:29 <Megan_Pletzer> +1
13:33:40 <quintinb> Like it needs to be interactable and perceivable, surely?
13:33:42 <Carol> that comment is not in web, i don't think we should do it for mobile
13:34:38 <Jamie> q+
13:34:52 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:35:08 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:36:00 <quintinb> Jamie if folks have issue with the SC,  perhaps it should go to the main wcag. How it relates to mobile, we could add notes, but this wouldn't be the same kind of note. We don't want it to come out as something different from the original wcag
13:36:24 <quintinb> Happy to go with the group on this
13:36:33 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:36:58 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I am worried for screen reader users, but this could significantly impact them on mobile more
13:37:40 <Joe_Humbert> I will aLSO GO WITH THE GROUP
13:37:54 <Joe_Humbert> sorry capslock issue
13:38:31 <pauljadam> q+
13:39:44 <rachaely> q+ what about switch control?
13:39:49 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:40:11 <JJ> q+ rachaely to what about switch control?
13:40:27 <quintinb> pauljadam Maybe this doesn't apply to screen readers because they provide their own focus
13:40:37 <quintinb> Sorry pauljadam I hope I got that right
13:41:31 <pauljadam> Yes and if the screen reader focus was on an element that was obscured and that element was a focusable element then the SC would apply, it just would not apply to static text being visible when focused with a screen reader.
13:41:34 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/focus-not-obscured-minimum.html
13:41:49 <JJ> ack rachaely
13:41:49 <Zakim> rachaely, you wanted to what about switch control?
13:42:23 <quintinb> rachaely How does switch control factors in - it's not exactly the same]
13:42:33 <quintinb> Switch control does bring it's own focus
13:42:44 <quintinb> on iOS and Android anyway
13:43:35 <pauljadam> On iOS if something is VoiceOver focusable, it would be focusable with full keyboard access and switch control, if switch control is on a focusable element then it cannot be fully obscured.
13:43:36 <quintinb> Android Hardware keyboard is the only one  that doesn't bring it's own focus to the table
13:44:01 <quintinb> For now... I have an app!
13:44:42 <pauljadam> sorry I don't mean static elements though
13:45:41 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:45:58 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:46:01 <pauljadam> q+
13:46:32 <Jamie> q+
13:46:35 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:46:37 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert My guess is that because this is wcag 2.2 it was written through a web lens. There may not have been a distinction between keyboard interface and keyboard
13:46:57 <quintinb> pauljadam they all apply, keyboard focusable elements should not be obscured
13:47:01 <Jamie> q-
13:48:49 <Jamie> 9 of 12 voters... do we need more to close?
13:49:06 <Jamie> 13, sorry
13:49:20 <JJ> ACTION: Decide what modes of operation (assistive technologies) are part of "keyboard focus"
13:49:58 <quintinb> Yeah happy to invert from -1 to +1
13:50:40 <quintinb> Motion to draft
13:50:46 <RacheleD> +1
13:51:04 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:51:06 <quintinb> +1
13:52:31 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:52:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.3.1 Info and Relationships -- taken up [from JJ]
13:57:01 <pauljadam> q+
13:57:05 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:58:11 <quintinb> pauljadam ARIA landmarks exist on web, but can't do this on mobile. Apple never tells you what to do with it. How do we write success and failure techniques
14:00:17 <RacheleD> quit
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14:30:15 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:30:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, hdv, Megan_Pletzer, RacheleD, rachaely, Carol, Aash, pauljadam, Detlev, Jamie
14:30:20 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:30:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/30-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:30:38 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:30:38 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/04/30-matf-actions.rdf :
14:30:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: If keyboard interface is replaced with accessibility interface, emphasize the focus logic / differences between keyboard/web and app behavior [1]
14:30:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/04/30-matf-irc#T13-19-32
14:30:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Decide what modes of operation (assistive technologies) are part of "keyboard focus" [2]
14:30:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/04/30-matf-irc#T13-49-20
14:30:42 <JJ> zakim, bye
14:30:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, hdv, Megan_Pletzer, RacheleD, rachaely, Carol, Aash, pauljadam, Detlev, Jamie
14:30:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf