18:02:12 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:02:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/29-aria-apg-irc 18:02:17 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:02:18 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:02:50 present+ jugglinmike 18:02:52 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:03:02 present+ howard-e 18:03:05 present+ 18:03:05 present+ Jem 18:03:09 present+ Matt_King 18:03:15 present+ Adam_Page 18:03:24 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:04:14 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-29%2C-2025-Agenda 18:05:33 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:05:41 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned 18:05:51 Matt_King: Next meeting: May 6 18:06:30 Topic: Publication planning 18:06:39 Matt_King: We really didn't have anything merged and ready to go today 18:07:00 Matt_King: I looked at what's in the queue right now--stuff that people are working on. I think it would be go for us to wait until the end of May 18:07:14 Matt_King: So for now, I've moved the milestone to May 29--the Thursday after Memorial Day 18:07:31 Matt_King: We won't have a meeting on the 27th 18:07:35 howard-e: That week works for me 18:07:59 Matt_King: Great. We'll check with Daniel when he's around. As long as there are no problems on the W3C side, we'll tentatively plan for that 18:08:07 Jem: I will be in Korean from May 7 to June 3 18:08:55 s/ I will be in Korean from May 7 to June 3/ / 18:09:21 present+ Daniel 18:09:36 Daniel: I believe that publication on May 29 should work 18:10:25 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:10:25 Matt_King: There are four items in the milestone. One is merged and three are on the agenda for today's meeting 18:10:37 Matt_King: I would also like to add more AT support tables in this milestone 18:10:40 Present+ 18:10:53 Jem: Please sleep instead! 18:11:11 s/Please sleep instead!/ / 18:11:18 Topic: PR 3249 - Add HTML search to landmark practice 18:11:29 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3249 18:11:35 Matt_King: It appears that there are lint errors 18:12:35 Matt_King: Can someone here look into the errors and maybe push a commit to fix them? I think that is the only thing standing in the way of merge 18:13:32 howard-e: The error reads, "Element 'search' is not allowed as a child of element 'div' in this context" 18:13:44 Matt_King: That's interesting. Why would that not be allowed? Maybe we need to ignore it 18:13:51 Matt_King: I suppose this requires some investigation 18:14:06 Matt_King: There must be something about the content-model for search... 18:14:35 howard-e: I guess if it comes down to ignoring it, I can push a commit to do that. 18:14:53 Matt_King: But it seems strange that we would want to ignore this error if we aren't using the "search" element correctly 18:15:16 Adam_Page: I can look into this one. You can assign it to me 18:17:21 Matt_King: Thanks! 18:20:18 howard-e: The validator is out of date. We pinned to an older version when they released a change that wasn't compatible with our project 18:20:20 Matt_King: It's very possible that this lint error is because our validator is out of date 18:20:28 Matt_King: Could we experiment in a pull request? 18:20:30 howard-e: Yes 18:20:49 howard-e: All of these errors are isolated to the tree grid, the dialog modal, and the combobox 18:21:32 howard-e: I'll do some investigation asynchronously 18:21:45 Topic: PR 3258 - Fix slider to remove redundant announcement of value by screen readers 18:21:52 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3258 18:21:58 This is a fix to https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3257 18:22:10 s/This is/Matt_King: This is/ 18:22:21 Matt_King: I think it's ready for review. I would love to get it into the next publication 18:23:55 Matt_King: This is only a modification to the HTML file for slider 18:24:06 Matt_King: I can push a commit to get rid of the other change that is present right now 18:24:13 Matt_King: ...or I can ask jongund to do that 18:25:22 Matt_King: I tested this with JAWS already, actually. I'm happy to do some accessibility review on this 18:25:30 Matt_King: But I would like to have one other reviewer 18:26:17 Jem: I know why jongund included that extra change. He fixed the aria-landmark example "resource" page. It should be in a separate pull request, though 18:26:22 Matt_King: Agreed 18:26:28 Matt_King: I'll do screen reader testing with JAWS and NVDA 18:26:57 Matt_King: There are two failing checks in continuous integration 18:27:55 Matt_King: Is the link checker failing because of that landmarks link? 18:28:08 howard-e: Testing locally, both versions of that link fail for me 18:28:41 Matt_King: I think I would probably remove that change. I would even be fine with merging with the failing link and fixing it in a separate pull request 18:28:52 Jem: Agreed 18:29:23 Jem: I can review the change to the slider. I will make sure that there are no unexpected changes, like in the visual presentation 18:29:31 Jem: I don't see any change to the visual presentation 18:29:38 Matt_King: Maybe this is just a simple 1-minute review 18:29:50 Matt_King: When I tested with JAWS, it was doing exactly what I was hoping for, which is pretty awesome 18:30:23 Matt_King: I've added you as a reviewer, Jem 18:30:38 Topic: PR 3251 - New expandable region pattern 18:30:44 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3251 18:31:08 Matt_King: Did we want this to be a separate pattern, or would it be another form of disclosure? 18:31:34 Matt_King: It could be one example that's under the "disclosure" pattern, but if it is a truly distinct pattern, then I'm happy to have a separate page for it 18:31:58 Matt_King: ...in that case, as howard-e was explaining, we need to have a "pattern" file and a sub-directory for the example, and an example file 18:32:14 Matt_King: Though even then, we will probably make a note that it is related to the "disclosure" pattern 18:32:33 Adam_Page: It hadn't occurred to me to add it as an example of an existing pattern 18:33:09 Adam_Page: I don't have a strong opinion on this one. I added it as a pattern only because it was originally pitched that way. I don't think we ever really discussed if that was the best option 18:33:52 Adam_Page: I've updated this with howard-e's help so that it builds as it should 18:34:25 Adam_Page: Basically, I did the initial implementation and that was it. I am mainly looking for feedback on the example itself, knowing that I will need to go back and fill out the documentation (and image, etc.) accordingly 18:34:35 https://deploy-preview-396--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/expandable-region/examples/expandable-region/ 18:35:12 Adam_Page: There is some appeal to me in making this another example within the "disclosure" pattern. It really is a disclosure 18:35:26 Adam_Page: Again, I don't have strong opinions on this, and I wasn't present for the original discussion 18:36:05 Adam_Page: But if I understand the impetus, this was intended as a sort of preferable way for the use case that many people were satisfying by stuffing a lot of stuff into buttons 18:37:42 Jaws has imposter syndrom. LOL 18:37:53 Matt_King: When I tried to collapse, JAWS lost its place. It went to "impostor syndrome". The performance isn't great, either 18:38:16 Matt_King: I don't know what JAWS is doing here, actually... 18:38:39 Adam_Page: I haven't tested in JAWS. I developed in Mac and used VoiceOver. It all seems to be working, there 18:39:11 Matt_King: Calling this an "expandable region" is kind of interesting to me 18:39:29 Matt_King: There's a region, and it has a little bit of content inside of it, and it has this option to make the content inside the region bigger 18:39:33 present+ Siri 18:39:41 Siri: It looks like an accordion, no? 18:40:05 Adam_Page: It really is, fundamentally, a disclosure--like, an accordion 18:40:40 Adam_Page: The quirk is that the thing that visually is inviting the user to expand is structurally rich. We're using JavaScript to enlarge the clickable region 18:40:55 Jem: I don't think this is an accordion design pattern. This is a disclosure. 18:41:28 Daniel has joined #aria-apg 18:41:53 Daniel has left #aria-apg 18:41:57 Matt_King: I don't understand why it has anything to do with the region 18:42:07 Matt_King: The "details" button feels like an ordinary disclosure 18:42:19 Matt_King: So there's something about the visual presentation that says you can click on a larger area 18:42:40 Matt_King: If I wanted to code this, I would say, "here is a landmark region that says 'fire to flare'" and then within that region, I would place a disclosure 18:43:04 Siri: If we have to provide a region for the container inside, I don't think we need to go into that much detail 18:43:29 Matt_King: It feels to me like this goes in the "disclosure" pattern 18:43:41 Daniel has joined #aria-apg 18:44:04 Adam_Page: It certainly has a lot in common with "disclosure". If we were to make it its own page, then that new page would have a lot in common with "disclosure". It would maybe be redundant 18:44:26 Adam_Page: Maybe we just call it a "rich disclosure". The differentiating factor is that the thing which expand the disclosure is rich--it is visually showing much more 18:44:40 Matt_King: Right, but from a screen reader user's point of view, there is no difference 18:44:44 Adam_Page: Yeah 18:45:08 Adam_Page: That's where I was interested to get some feedback on the example. That's where I made some editorial decisions about what the screen reader should be 18:46:06 Jem: What screen reader user experience are you referring to? 18:46:22 Matt_King: It's different from the accordion because there, we use a heading and make the whole heading clickable. 18:46:43 Matt_King: You can do the same thing with the accordion pattern. You could show more content than the heading in its collapsed state. 18:46:59 Matt_King: That's feasible, and it's covered in the pattern 18:47:37 Matt_King: In this case, this is a region with some content in it. A region that contains a heading and some text. And then following the text, there is a disclosure button. As a screen reader user, it doesn't feel any different from any other instance of a disclosure 18:48:12 Matt_King: The reason they wanted it in the APG has to do with the approach to coding it, where you have a "section" element, and the idea is that everything inside of that section is clickable. 18:48:45 Adam_Page: I think it was especially a reaction to how, in the real world, people are stuffing tons of stuff full of stuff that they shouldn't (and risking access issues) just to make that entire surface clickable 18:49:02 Matt_King: So the alternative is that some people might use a button where you have a section? 18:49:12 Adam_Page: Yes, that some people might stuff everything in my regions into a button 18:49:22 q+ 18:49:25 Matt_King: So the idea is to replace the button with a clickable section, and say "here's how you do it" 18:49:44 Adam_Page: And to do that without inventing anything new for ARIA or HTML--just to solve the use case with things that already exist 18:50:12 Matt_King: It looks to me like what you have for the details is a button element that doesn't look at all different from any of our "disclosure" buttons that we already have in APG 18:50:17 Adam_Page: Yes, that's right 18:50:39 Matt_King: When Scott presented this, I had the impression that there was something simpler or different about the coding than having to make a button. I guess not 18:50:58 Adam_Page: Scott made a code pen really early on when he made the issue for APG. I referenced that, taking it an beefing it up 18:51:46 Adam_Page: I will investigate what's going on with JAWS 18:51:58 Matt_King: I am using a pre-release version of JAWS, so it may be due to that 18:52:19 Matt_King: This is really just a different visual design for a disclosure that has a bigger click target 18:52:24 Adam_Page: Yes, I think that's a fair summary 18:53:01 Matt_King: Is the issue here about naming and helping people understand that they can have large, rich click targets? 18:53:16 Matt_King: Maybe we call this a "disclosure region" instead of a "disclosure button" 18:53:25 q? 18:53:33 Adam_Page: Jem called out that there is the Bootstrap "Card". That is a common UX paradigm 18:53:44 Matt_King: So maybe we call it an "expandable card" 18:53:47 Adam_Page: That could work 18:53:57 Matt_King: I think the first step is to move it into the "disclosure" example directory 18:54:08 Matt_King: Then we can avoid creating a whole new pattern 18:54:10 Adam_Page: Sounds good 18:54:28 Matt_King: We ought to be able to get this into the next publication. I'll see if I can mess around with words 18:54:34 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3215#issuecomment-2626979811 18:54:35 ask Daniel 18:54:40 ack Daniel 18:54:40 +q 18:55:04 Daniel: I put a comment for us to think about what we want the screen reader user's experience to be 18:55:53 Daniel: As you arrow down through the things, you could press "enter" to expand. Making this go to the button and then hitting "enter" on that--maybe we should consider efficiency 18:56:12 Daniel: And for what it's worth, I don't experience any lag when testing with NVDA (though I'm using an NVDA beta) 18:56:49 Matt_King: If you're reading this with a screen reader, even if you knew that there was something expandable inside of this region before you got to this button, how would you know that you want to expand it before getting to the button? I'm presuming that you would want to read the content... 18:57:02 Matt_King: I'm trying to grasp what the alternatives might be and why they might be desirable 18:57:54 Adam_Page: I have to confess that the "clickable" announcement is a little mysterious to me, still. I don't know if it happens in VoiceOver at all 18:58:30 Adam_Page: Are JAWS and NVDA trying to be "smart" in the sense that if they see a "click" event listener on an element that is not typically focusable, do they bubble that information up? 18:58:43 Daniel: NVDA has that behavior enabled by default, but I turn it off 18:58:45 Matt_King: I do, too 18:59:32 Daniel: There's a setting in NVDA where you can actually turn it on or off whether you want "clickable" items announced 18:59:44 Daniel: As Adam_Page was saying, it's whenever they find a "click" event listener 19:00:15 Jem: Daniel shared that as a comment to issue 3215 19:01:09 Matt_King: JAWS and VoiceOver don't announce "clickable" by default, and a lot of NVDA users turn it off 19:01:29 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3215 19:01:36 Matt_King: Thank you for the excellent discussion! This is great 19:01:54 Adam_Page: For my next step, I will do some JAWS testing and update the pull request to make this an example of the disclosure pattern 19:02:01 Matt_King: Awesome, thank you! 19:02:23 Zakim, end the meeting 19:02:23 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, Jem, Matt_King, Adam_Page, Daniel, Siri 19:02:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:34 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:34 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:50 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:50 I see no action items