15:04:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:04:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/28-coga-irc
15:04:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:04:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:04:28 <julierawe> chair: julierawe
15:04:30 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
15:04:34 <Charli> present+
15:04:38 <julierawe> Meeting: COGA task force
15:04:48 <julierawe> date: 28 apr 2025
15:04:56 <JeanneEC> present+
15:05:06 <Jennie_Delisi> scribe+
15:05:21 <julierawe> agenda+ Global inclusion feedback on COGA patterns
15:05:31 <julierawe> agenda+ COGA community group feedback
15:05:57 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie: scribe+
15:06:51 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
15:07:05 <Jan> present+
15:07:13 <Gareth1> Gareth1 has joined #coga
15:08:07 <Gareth1> Present+
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15:09:46 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Please ask questions at any time if you are having trouble with any of the interfaces or processes for COGA.
15:10:06 <Jennie_Delisi> ...new member introductions?
15:10:20 <Jennie_Delisi> Gareth S: I am excited to be here!
15:10:42 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Gareth is a full stack developer, front end and back end
15:10:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...focusing on neuro-inclusive UX
15:11:35 <julierawe> scribe+ Jennie_Delisi
15:12:10 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Last week was the 1st COGA and coffee chat.
15:12:17 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Hopefully we will have another one soon.
15:12:22 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This is a nice group of people!
15:12:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Lisa does orientation for new members.
15:13:17 <kirkwood> present+
15:13:22 <julierawe> zakim, next item
15:13:22 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Global inclusion feedback on COGA patterns -- taken up [from julierawe]
15:13:29 <tiffanyburtin> tiffanyburtin has joined #coga
15:13:33 <tiffanyburtin> present+
15:13:55 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARdgFWjFQb2vOEDQkHYu24ociCeRMDF9xQhaMQgW1MA/edit?gid=210656918#gid=210656918
15:14:05 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: We are going back to this document - global inclusion community group's review of COGA's patterns
15:14:13 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This is from Making Content Usable
15:14:23 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We are getting ready to update with the new version, new format
15:14:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We knew we needed more feedback on how to internationalize the content
15:14:47 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Jan is leading a group reviewing
15:14:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The group put together a spreadsheet.
15:15:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Review the 2nd tab
15:15:25 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We also received feedback from them about the way we are thinking about structuring the next version.
15:15:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This is specific to how we use headers.
15:15:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Today we will focus on the more specific feedback from the spreadsheet.
15:16:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: Lisa wants use to focus on just a few of these.
15:16:36 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: I think Lisa wants us to focus on the first few rows.
15:16:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The Design is Clear section
15:17:04 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Row #3 is the 1st pattern in this section.
15:17:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...If we can go through the 1st objective, that should help us prepare to get the patterns into the new format.
15:17:40 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: The objectives do not align 100% between the new and older versions.
15:17:57 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: The link in the invitation to today's meeting - disregard that link?
15:18:16 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: I sent an updated agenda item that I hoped went to the spreadsheet.
15:18:32 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: OK. Thank you. I ended up with multiple meetings on my calendar.
15:19:05 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARdgFWjFQb2vOEDQkHYu24ociCeRMDF9xQhaMQgW1MA/edit?gid=210656918#gid=210656918
15:19:08 <Jan> Community Group Feedback: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARdgFWjFQb2vOEDQkHYu24ociCeRMDF9xQhaMQgW1MA/edit?usp=sharing
15:19:45 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Spreadsheet title: Content Usable Patterns - Feedback
15:19:59 <Jennie_Delisi> ...2nd tab has the name Consolidated Feedback
15:20:27 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Column 3 - Internationalization Issues Rating
15:20:46 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: Column C has 3 choices
15:21:08 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The community group added Column D to try to come up with a short description of the categories and issues people are concerned about
15:21:30 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This Column D enables selection of more than one option.
15:22:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...(reads through the options)
15:22:47 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There are some concerns that we need to think through how things are translated into different languages, and sometimes may not be translatable.
15:23:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The community group felt there might be too much focus on equating age with dementia, possibly leading to confusion that they always go together.
15:23:28 <Jennie_Delisi> ...They suggest including other use cases
15:23:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The community group - many do not have English as their first language.
15:24:01 <Jennie_Delisi> ...They took time to review, then gathered everyone's feedback onto this tab.
15:24:24 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Column E: notes some people made in their individual tabs, to provide more details.
15:24:46 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There is suggested rewording in different columns, with the person's name.
15:25:22 <Jennie_Delisi> Gareth: Can you clarify the scope?
15:25:28 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: That is a good question.
15:25:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We have "page title" from WCAG.
15:25:51 <Jennie_Delisi> ...But I believe this includes how you are using headings on a page.
15:25:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...For row 3.
15:26:07 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: I think this particular one is on the main title, or main heading.
15:26:39 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The accessibility guidelines working group is working on a new way to describe this, such as "main view".
15:27:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This is more about the main section header - helping someone orient to "what is the purpose of this"?
15:28:17 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: I am interested in the suggested rewrites. Are we using a standard guide for plain language, easily translated, etc?
15:28:26 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I have a suggestion if we do not.
15:28:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It would be helpful to know the styleguide.
15:28:40 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18rqamyGgYF1DAUHLhsXmR20FtN9AQSaPc9zpFNN1xgM/edit?pli=1&tab=t.0#heading=h.527yvnol81gl
15:28:53 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: We are not doing anything like that yet. Please do share your experience, Charli.
15:28:58 <Charli> Here's the style guide I've used in the past: https://www.amazon.com/Global-English-Style-Guide-Documentation/dp/1599946572/
15:29:12 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: We do not have an official way to approach, right Julie?
15:29:26 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: I shared the COGA styleguide above (at :28)
15:29:33 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It has best practices.
15:29:38 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I worked on this with Frankie
15:29:56 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: I will read through the COGA Style Guide
15:30:22 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The Global Style Guide I posted - might be helpful if some of us mastered it - not everyone needs to do so.
15:30:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The emphasis is making it clear and translatable.
15:31:00 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: The COGA Style Guide - the Best Practices section.
15:31:13 <Jennie_Delisi> ...When we take what is in the old or original version, and we put it into the new format
15:31:42 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We are trying to use common words, short sentences, active voice, spilt up long paragraphs.
15:31:55 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The new format is designed to encourage to streamline our guidance.
15:32:33 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We have not yet determined how we will reference the older version of the document.
15:32:51 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This includes hyphens, bulleted list elements, etc.
15:33:05 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We can look at the reference Charli referenced.
15:33:27 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The first version of Making Content Usable - we will be using plain language principles in the next version.
15:33:56 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We have received feedback from the internationalization group that sometimes using an active phrase instead of focusing on the outcome can be difficult
15:34:12 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Some aspects of language for internationalization are things we are reviewing.
15:34:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Sometimes a more passive but outcome-focused phase can help some people
15:34:51 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Language simplification is a big focus of efforts for the next version.
15:35:06 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: Simpler language can sometimes make it more difficult to translate.
15:35:26 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Phrasal verbs are an example.
15:35:49 <julierawe> q+
15:36:43 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This can impact word count (efforts to improve translation), but might be something to add to the best practices.
15:37:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I would love to work on how to ensure the language is clear, sentence structure is simple, and highly translatable.
15:37:06 <kirkwood> very good input!
15:37:14 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: That would be great. We have an editor's group
15:37:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There is also the Structure Subgroup.
15:37:58 <Jennie_Delisi> ...They came up with a design, and now they are taking existing patterns and moving them into the new structure.
15:38:14 <Jennie_Delisi> ...After they get their draft ready they let the COGA editor's know it is ready for review.
15:38:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The editor's group looks at the new draft, and look for where it needs help to be clearer, have text refined.
15:39:16 <Jennie_Delisi> ...After the editorial review, after working with the structure group too, then it gets shared with the Global Inclusion Community Group.
15:39:33 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Jan's version was looking at the old version.
15:39:52 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Many of the comments - COGA agrees with some of the issues identified.
15:40:05 <Jennie_Delisi> ...A lot of these items we definitely want to address.
15:40:23 <julierawe> ack julierawe
15:40:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This document helps us catch everything which needs to be reworked in the next version.
15:40:48 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: We tried to capture feedback in a way which could be used by the editorial group.
15:41:00 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We meet every other week on Wednesday mornings.
15:41:15 <Jennie_Delisi> ...You can sign up to join the community group, to get added to the list.
15:41:22 <julierawe> Action item: Invite Charli to the editors calls.
15:41:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There are people from around the world.
15:42:13 <Jennie_Delisi> ...In the last meeting we were trying to provide feedback around the work related to structure.
15:42:29 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Frankie created a spreadsheet with the anticipated structure for the new version.
15:43:10 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Each link in column A takes you to the current wording in Making Content Usable
15:43:21 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Column E has the notes
15:43:36 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Makoto included feedback related to vertical writing.
15:43:45 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Does anyone have any specific questions?
15:44:33 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: This spreadsheet is taking the original document (which has objectives, design patterns) and provides the internationalization feedback.
15:44:57 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The next version will have possibly differently named objectives in the next version.
15:45:15 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It may get a bit confusing as the information  moves around a bit
15:45:37 <Jennie_Delisi> ...But no matter how we repackage in the new version we need to ensure we don't repeat those English-centric issues identified.
15:46:33 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We will take all of this into account for the new version.
15:46:55 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: 4.2.3 was found to be especially difficult to read by this group.
15:47:37 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We also have a notes document because of some of the issues people were having following along
15:47:50 <Jan> global-inclusion notes document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TeGEsD1JVf7L9bFW3_e7YTnqtmUnpTldJhD6N16ElAU/edit?usp=sharing
15:48:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...This gives the history, shows the next meeting (May 7, next Wednesday)
15:49:10 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: The "needs sensitivity review" - is that category (row 8) - is the sensitivity review about ageism?
15:49:42 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: Mostly people reading through the patterns top to bottom - impacted by people writing individual ones, as opposed to reading the objectives top to bottom
15:49:51 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Some items kept coming up with a thought about ageism
15:50:02 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Examples need to be more diverse, was the feedback.
15:50:15 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: OK, that is helpful.
15:50:32 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Once we get all patterns ready for the new format, for version 2
15:50:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...And they do this review again.
15:50:49 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Is that how you envision?
15:51:04 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: There is a spreadsheet already created by Frankie for this, but we have not yet used it.
15:51:16 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It was helpful to review the current drafts to understand the general structure.
15:51:16 <kirkwood> present+
15:51:27 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Next time we will talk about the What To Do section
15:51:34 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We didn't get to that at our last meeting.
15:51:53 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: It would be helpful for the Global Inclusion group to wait until we have the first full objective
15:52:22 <Jennie_Delisi> ...So you can get that wholistic perspective - to look at things as a group, to repeat to see if this is now more diverse.
15:52:35 <Jennie_Delisi> ...We have a couple more to complete, and can let you know when ready for that.
15:52:58 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Does anyone in the group have any questions about what we have been discussing?
15:53:15 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: There are some diagrams I would really love
15:53:31 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Like the groups that meet at different times than this group, who is on each group, and the stuff we work on
15:53:36 <julierawe> Action item: Consider making a diagram of the different COGA subgroups and what they're working on
15:53:47 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: We might have talked about this in the past.
15:54:03 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I think this would help for onboarding.
15:54:22 <Jennie_Delisi> Charli: There is too much for a 30 minute phone call for onboarding.
15:54:28 <Jennie_Delisi> ...I still had additional questions.
15:54:36 <Jan> This is a draft email for recruiting members to the Internationalization Accessibility Community Group, with a short name of global-inclusion. Toward the end of the text, there are instructions for how to join the group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14urDbLrdkARcfQhDRUItUUYGm23bY5FAWnKx4xjpAM4/edit?usp=sharing
15:54:50 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: Thanks.
15:55:04 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Any other questions or comments?
15:56:02 <Jennie_Delisi> Gareth: If there is a list for all the meetings and when they are, it would be appreciated.
15:56:18 <Jennie_Delisi> Tiffany (in the Zoom chat): https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups
15:56:47 <Jennie_Delisi> Jan: Please email me if you would like to be invited to the group we were discussing.
15:56:57 <Jennie_Delisi> ...It is at 9am eastern, every other Wednesday
15:57:07 <julierawe> Action item: Update the COGA subgroups, which is outdated.
15:57:54 <Jennie_Delisi> Julie: thank you for all the suggestions, and to Jan for walking us through the spreadsheet.
15:58:06 <Jennie_Delisi> ...The Monday call - this call - the big COGA call.
15:58:19 <Jennie_Delisi> ...Thursdays at 9am Boston time is the subgroup time.
15:58:28 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There are editor calls on Tuesday and Thursdays
15:58:40 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There are other calls which happen on different days and times.
15:58:48 <Jennie_Delisi> ...There is always something on Thursdays at 11 eastern
15:59:04 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/28-coga-minutes.html julierawe
15:59:16 <julierawe> Thank you, Jennie_Delisi for scribing!
15:59:23 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/28-coga-minutes.html julierawe
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