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12:01:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:01:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:01:22 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-04-24: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Apr/0009.html
12:01:23 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:01:23 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:01:23 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Apr/0009.html
12:01:24 <ivan> regrets+ shinya, gregorio
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12:58:53 <ivan> present+
12:59:01 <ivan> present+ dale
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12:59:32 <ivan> present+ avneesh
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13:01:41 <ivan> present+ charles
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13:03:16 <duga> scribe+
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13:04:05 <duga> wendyreid: Susan is joining the chairs as a new co-chair!
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13:04:46 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/blog/2025/epub3-3-recommendations-published-work-begins-on-new-features/
13:05:04 <duga> ... And a blog post about epub went out on the w3c website
13:05:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:05:16 <duga> ... thank you SueNue for writing it
13:05:36 <ivan> q+
13:05:47 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:06:10 <duga> ivan: Before the main topic, there is a pending PR on epub that has been around for a while with no feedback
13:06:43 <duga> wendyreid: 2708? I though we agreed to merge it. I just didn't want to touch it due to merge conflicts
13:06:58 <duga> mgarrish: Yeah, I just had not gotten back to it
13:07:42 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:07:54 <wendyreid> Topic: Changing XHTML to HTML - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2709
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13:08:21 <duga> wendyreid: Started this discussion last week, there is a open PR
13:09:00 <duga> ... There was an idea to just replace XHTML with HTML and change mention to the XML serialization
13:09:03 <duga> q+
13:09:06 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:09:08 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:09:30 <wendyreid> duga: I haven't commented more on the PR, I think Ivan was looking for something to add for HTML to see if people reacted
13:09:32 <ivan> q+
13:09:45 <wendyreid> ... if there was a problem, we could just pull it out before it gets released. Easy to revert.
13:10:04 <wendyreid> ... I'm worried no matter what we do, it'll be hard to pull this out, particularly the way its written now
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13:10:19 <wendyreid> ... the current PR is only changing some of the stuff, its resulting in a broken build, a broken spc
13:10:37 <wendyreid> ... we want to get the changes in, but the more we breakup the change, the harder it is to pull it out later
13:10:52 <wendyreid> ... the spec is broken in the midst of the changes, that's less important, it leaves us in a weird place
13:10:53 <mgarrish> q+
13:11:04 <wendyreid> ... the downside of doing anything is that it will be hard to pull it out
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13:11:19 <wendyreid> ... we'll add things to the spec over time, it'll be difficult to fix in the end
13:11:28 <wendyreid> ... and room for significant errors if we pull it out
13:11:41 <wendyreid> ... I don't think it's possible for us to do this in a way that's easy to revert later
13:12:04 <wendyreid> ... I just worry about rushing to this change and doing it in multiple parts, but we might be fooling ourselves if we think it's fixable later
13:12:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:12:26 <wendyreid> ... it's a radical solution too to change XHTML to HTML
13:12:30 <SueNue> q+
13:12:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:12:42 <duga> ivan: Let me pick it up from there
13:12:49 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:12:57 <duga> ... My understanding is that our current spec is wrong
13:13:10 <duga> ... because at w3c there is no such thing as XHTML
13:13:41 <duga> ... there is just html, just xml serialization of xhtml
13:14:01 <duga> ... So the right thing to do is to refer to xhtml
13:14:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:14:21 <duga> ... and then say that only the xhtml serialization is accepted
13:14:27 <George> q+
13:14:57 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:14:59 <duga> ... This is more work, but even if we don't do raw html, as it makes the spec more in line with the other w3c specs
13:15:28 <duga> mgarrish: I disagree, we aren't wrong, as we define xhtml ourselves
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13:16:12 <wendyreid> q+
13:16:20 <duga> ... But if we suddenly take the X out after so long, people won't read the definition andwill think html is allowed
13:16:44 <duga> ... But it requires people to pay attention to definitions to understand what really happened
13:17:30 <duga> ... I do agree that the farther we go down that harder it is to back out
13:18:10 <duga> ... But I am not that worried to back out what we have, it is just a few changes at the moment
13:18:11 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:18:15 <wendyreid> ack SueNue
13:18:22 <duga> ... but yes once it is everything this will be really hard to back out
13:19:00 <duga> SueNue: I think there are two competing ideas, one is supporting our community, the other is matching the  w3c
13:19:08 <wendyreid> ack Geo
13:19:16 <duga> ... I think we owe it to the community to leave the X in
13:19:48 <duga> George: We should move forward until we get responses from the survey
13:20:06 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:20:11 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:20:18 <duga> ... And then we can have tools to support our decision (e.g. epubcheck)
13:20:56 <duga> wendyreid: This spec is used by people who aren't web people. What is a survey here asking?
13:21:08 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:21:25 <Dale_R> q+
13:21:26 <SueNue> q+
13:21:29 <duga> ... I think a lot of people who get such a survey won't know the difference between XHTML and html
13:21:47 <duga> ... The big problem is toolchains, tools, and rendering systems
13:22:02 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:22:08 <duga> ... Is it just pulling a few blocks of html? Or bigger?
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13:22:27 <duga> AvneeshSingh: I think we need to get the survey out ASAP
13:22:45 <duga> ... we need to get this to aggregators
13:22:56 <wendyreid> ack Dale_R
13:22:58 <duga> ... Focus on them and reading systems
13:23:10 <duga> Dale_R: Back to the notion of who is the audience
13:23:30 <duga> ... When I first looked at making my book, I looked at the spec and saw xhtml
13:23:45 <duga> ... I was surprised that I had to go back to xhtml
13:24:01 <duga> ... So from my point of view it threw me off
13:24:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:24:30 <duga> ... I would love to go forward with html
13:24:34 <duga> q+
13:25:14 <duga> ... I think there is a question if people are using an authoring system they may never see the difference
13:25:15 <wendyreid> ack SueNue
13:25:42 <duga> SueNue: That was really interesting to hear that perspective
13:26:09 <CharlesL1> q+
13:26:11 <duga> ... I wonder if we change the doc and remove the X, will they make a document that works
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13:26:56 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:26:58 <duga> ... do we have people that make large quantities of epubs?
13:27:41 <wendyreid> duga: Interesting, and I want to hone on something SueNue said, and question for Dale, if you had read the spec it said HTML and buried somewhere it said "XML serialization", what would you have done with your first book ?
13:28:04 <wendyreid> Dale_R: I would have used modern HTML tools and code, and just followed the rest of the spec for other files
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13:28:14 <wendyreid> duga: And I think that's the problem, it would not work
13:28:47 <wendyreid> ... the XHTML is such a speed bump because it says it everywhere, you know you have to do it. If we say HTML we'd get a lot of upset authors and broken content
13:29:04 <wendyreid> ... as much as I like the purity of saying HTML, I just worry we'll create more confusion than we want
13:29:26 <wendyreid> ... I also disagree that we're wrong, we could call it anything we want, as long as we define it we're fine
13:29:30 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL1
13:29:33 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:29:46 <duga> CharlesL1: To SueNue point,are the major players who are tool prividers
13:29:52 <duga> ... Adobe is one
13:29:53 <mgarrish> q+
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13:30:22 <duga> ... as far as the other vendors, we have agreements with a lot of them
13:30:33 <wendyreid> q+
13:30:41 <duga> ... if we do a survey, I can make sure they see it, as well as gca publishers
13:30:44 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:30:45 <duga> q+
13:31:04 <duga> mgarrish: I just threw out the idea of the survey this morning
13:31:38 <duga> ... We did this before.
13:31:53 <duga> ... Are authors using xhtml just because they have to?
13:32:03 <duga> ... It would be great to have data that shows that
13:32:07 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:32:11 <ivan> q+
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13:32:19 <duga> wendyreid: I like the idea of a survey
13:32:35 <duga> ... We want to target to specific stake holders
13:33:17 <duga> ... for instance targets are content authors, another for conversion houses, distributors, renderers
13:33:22 <duga> q-
13:33:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:33:42 <duga> ivan: I understand all the arguments
13:34:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:34:13 <duga> ... to be precise we do not define xhtml (I just checked)
13:35:06 <duga> ... We just refer to the html spec, which at the end of a link chain takes us to a place that says don't use it
13:35:21 <wendyreid> q+
13:35:31 <duga> ... The spec itself still looks strange
13:35:31 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:35:56 <duga> wendyreid: One thing we can clarify now for the survey is what a no-go point is
13:36:09 <duga> ... we will hear that people don't want to do this
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13:36:33 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:36:57 <duga> ... tools and tech evolve, so more companies may be forced into it eventually
13:37:20 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:37:29 <duga> ... is it too hard to really do, vs we can, but we don't want to
13:37:50 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Let's get it out, maybe there will be less pushback
13:37:53 <duga> q+
13:38:08 <Dale_R> q+
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13:38:23 <duga> ... This isn't really a show stopper as I understand it, maybe it will just inform how we approach the change
13:38:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:38:54 <duga> ... back to what SueNue said, people have to pay to be on this grou, hence the need for outreach
13:39:34 <wendyreid> duga: Thinking about the survey, thinking about the change, and the reality, the reality is that XHTML is dead, it's been dying for a while, no new features are making it from HTML to XHTML
13:39:49 <wendyreid> ... so if anything changes in HTML, it won't make it to the XML serialization
13:40:11 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:40:12 <wendyreid> ... because XHTML is dead, we need to make the change, and it will only make using the spec harder if we don't make the change
13:40:35 <wendyreid> ... the survey is also a PR or marketing push to tell people "we're doing this eventually, now might be the time" and we need them on board
13:40:44 <wendyreid> ... unless there are literal fires, telling them this is coming
13:40:54 <wendyreid> ... we need to use the wording of the survey to convince people to do it
13:41:04 <wendyreid> ack Dale_R
13:41:44 <duga> Dale_R: Listening to this, it reminds me of current news events (e.g. cobol used in government)
13:42:11 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:42:26 <George> q+
13:42:34 <duga> ... And it reminds me of the browser wars, and sticking to the spec regardless of outcome
13:42:54 <wendyreid> q+
13:43:06 <duga> ... Is our job to say how it is done, or how it should be done?
13:43:24 <wendyreid> ack Geo
13:43:59 <duga> George: two things - there are a11y innovations around complex images, etc that would benefit from html
13:44:11 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:44:24 <duga> ... And people working on that are in htmlworld
13:44:28 <ivan> q+
13:44:32 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:44:38 <ivan> present+ tzviya
13:44:55 <CharlesL1> q+
13:44:59 <duga> ... Second, maybe our survey should be targeted at "what is the difficulty of switching" instead of "s hould we"
13:45:36 <duga> wendyreid: we should use this as a pr tool. E.g. as we are making this change how will this impact you? What will the problems be? How can we help?
13:45:48 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:45:49 <SueNue> q+
13:45:51 <duga> ... I will take up the task of making a doc to brainstorm on this
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13:46:36 <duga> ivan: I propose we merge the current pr with the minimal change
13:46:53 <duga> ... Then we can reference that
13:47:26 <duga> ... Then someone has to take point on the survey, and we need to decide how long we have for submittals
13:47:47 <duga> ... No matter what we have to make some changes
13:47:57 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:48:02 <duga> ... as the current spec is a bit dirty in this regard
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13:48:12 <AvneeshSingh> Just to remind July and August are holidays season in Europe and US. So, ideally we should have most responses within June
13:48:25 <duga> CharlesL1: Some publishers are making 3.2 files.
13:48:39 <duga> ... So this will be a big shock
13:48:48 <duga> s/3.2/2/
13:49:03 <duga> ... If we did this is it an epub 3.4 vs 4 change
13:49:07 <ivan> s/making 3.2 files/making EPUB 2 files/
13:49:11 <wendyreid> ack SueNue
13:49:22 <tzviya> q+ to make this a marketing change
13:49:25 <ivan> q+
13:49:30 <duga> SueNue: I like the idea of this is happening and how can we help as the focus
13:49:55 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
13:49:56 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to make this a marketing change
13:50:05 <duga> ... As a group it would help to have our talking points ready
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13:50:43 <duga> tzviya: I understand this is a big processing change, but if we market this as a "don't panic" change
13:51:05 <duga> ... then we are covered from the publisher side. For reading system side we need to document how to do this
13:51:36 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:51:38 <duga> ... We can't stay in 1988 forever! Documentation is our friend, and we have to do this
13:52:03 <duga> ivan: One thing, if this is epub 3.4 or 4, I push back on it being 4
13:52:11 <tzviya> +1 - this is not EPUB 4
13:52:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:52:17 <duga> ... It is still a gradual improvement
13:53:16 <duga> ... We need to make sure it is not major change, XHTML is still allowed, 3.3 doc is still valid
13:53:32 <duga> wendyreid: I will start the doc and share it for comments and addition
13:54:12 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:54:21 <duga> .. We will help wrap peoples heads around what the change means
13:54:22 <duga> q+
13:54:33 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:54:44 <wendyreid> duga: If we merge the PR can I review first?
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13:55:08 <George> +1
13:55:16 <duga> +1
13:55:38 <duga> wendyreid: AOB?
13:55:42 <SueNue> They are turning off electricity in my house- see you next week
13:56:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:56:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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