13:50:00 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:50:05 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-irc 13:50:16 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:50:23 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250424T150000/ 13:50:23 clear agenda 13:50:23 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:50:23 agenda+ Action Items 13:50:25 agenda+ Info Share 13:50:28 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:50:28 agenda+ Review RADAR 13:50:29 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:50:36 agenda+ WCAG-ACT Joint Meeting 13:50:36 agenda+ Notification Email Changes 13:50:36 agenda+ Specdev "isomorphic string" PR 13:50:39 agenda+ AOB? 13:50:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:57:16 present+ 14:02:50 Daniel has joined #i18n 14:02:54 Kathy has joined #i18n 14:02:56 present+ 14:03:00 present+ 14:03:04 rrsagent, make minutes 14:03:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:03:15 JcK has joined #i18n 14:03:32 present+ 14:03:52 Helen has joined #i18n 14:04:13 agenda? 14:04:49 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:04:49 agendum 6 -- WCAG-ACT Joint Meeting -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:00 present+ 14:05:02 Wilco has joined #i18n 14:05:06 Sage has joined #i18n 14:05:40 scribe: xfq 14:06:31 [self-introduction] 14:08:13 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572 14:08:14 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572 -> Issue 572 How are rule identifiers matched to one another? (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution] 14:08:24 addison: we did an i18n review of the ACT rules a while ago 14:08:30 ... an open issue ^ 14:08:48 ... we have some other open issues that we might look at if there's interest and time 14:09:09 ... it says "This identifier must be unique when the rule is part of a ruleset" 14:09:25 ... our comment on that is uniqueness can be challenging in a Unicode context 14:09:27 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/593/files 14:09:27 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/593 -> Pull Request 593 Qualify identifier uniqueness prose (by daniel-montalvo) 14:10:33 addison: ACT rule doesn't define how an ACT rule is written 14:10:37 ... it's not a file format 14:10:52 ... so you can write ACT rules in a number of different ways 14:11:09 ... these are the things that you need to have in a successful ACT rule 14:11:12 Wilco: yeah 14:11:22 addison: you don't define how the identifiers are created 14:11:45 ... the challenge is how to tell people how to meet the reqs 14:12:02 ... we have a really long document about identifiers and checking uniqueness called charmod-norm 14:13:21 Wilco: we anticipated different groups writing their own rule sets potentially 14:13:28 addison: a weak must is a should 14:14:44 addison: because you don't specify what the format is 14:14:59 ... or a rule set is, you can't say how the uniqueness is determined 14:15:26 ... a rule set could be case insensitive, which would make uppercase and lowercase versions of English words the same 14:15:33 Wilco: yeah 14:15:53 addison: but it's up to whoever's writing the rule set to ensure the uniqueness of rule ids 14:16:01 ... and you might want to say that straight out 14:16:27 > An ACT Rule must have an identifier that is a unique string of unicode characters. The identifier can be any text, such as a lower case ascii string, URL, or a database identifier. 14:16:41 Wilco: I don't understand what might not work about what we're proposing in PR 593 14:17:17 addison: I think you want to stay out of getting too specific 14:17:35 ... my tendency would just be it should be unique within a rule set 14:19:38 Wilco: yeah 14:20:21 Wilco: I left a comment on https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/593#discussion_r2058569066 14:20:21 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/593 -> Pull Request 593 Qualify identifier uniqueness prose (by daniel-montalvo) 14:20:27 addison: that looks good 14:20:45 JcK: you're walking along the edge of a cliff 14:21:10 ... because the moment somebody has to start matching what appears in the rule set to something which appears somewhere else 14:21:47 ... you suddenly jump into all the difficulties about matching a pair of Unicode identifiers 14:22:04 Wilco: you're right, we're aware 14:22:31 ... if there was a thousand orgs writing rules and they were each writing a thousand rules we might have a problem here 14:22:44 ... but it's not a thing we ever expect to happen 14:23:00 JcK: in reality it doesn't require 1000, it requires about three 14:23:12 addison: do you want a health warning? 14:23:39 ... I think this is probably fine 14:23:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3As%3Aact-rules-format 14:24:00 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/574 14:24:01 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/574 -> Issue 574 Is the ‘descriptive title’ used for matching? (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution] 14:25:29 Daniel: I propose to close this 14:25:40 ... We are not using the descriptive title for matching 14:26:04 Kathy: have you all looked at 573? 14:26:15 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/573 14:26:15 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/573 -> CLOSED Issue 573 ACT does not require that the language of text is indicated (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution] 14:26:39 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/592/files 14:26:40 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/592 -> MERGED Pull Request 592 Qualify "writing direction" statement (by daniel-montalvo) 14:26:44 addison: 592 closed it, we haven't reviewed that yet 14:26:56 Wilco: it might be good to just go over all of these too 14:27:08 ... make sure we're all on the same page and can move forward 14:27:15 present+ r12a 14:27:20 rrsagent, make minutes 14:27:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:27:39 present+ Wilco 14:27:43 present+ Bert 14:27:53 present+ Sage 14:28:13 addison: it seems to address our comment 14:28:28 ... you don't specify a file format, so you don't say what form the metadata takes 14:28:36 Wilco: so I think we covered all issues 14:29:32 ... it depends on whatever format you implemented in 14:29:37 ... which is a browser 14:30:41 xfq: should we close our tracker issues? 14:30:47 addison: once they merge the PR 14:31:13 addison: don't touch the horizontal review labels because they're how the automation works 14:31:21 ... you just close it 14:31:38 Daniel: thank you for your comments 14:32:06 agenda? 14:32:56 [ACT folks leave] 14:33:17 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:33:17 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:33:39 agenda+ WebNN 14:33:46 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:33:47 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:33:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 14:33:59 #167 14:34:00 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/167 -> Action 167 file issue(s) against limiting-local-font-access (on aphillips) due 2025-04-24 14:34:15 close #167 14:34:17 Closed -> issue #167 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/167 14:34:19 #165 14:34:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/165 -> Action 165 add a conformance section to suppress the respec warning to specdev (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10 14:34:58 addison: #165, when you do that it causes our spec to blow up 14:34:58 #162 14:34:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162 -> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25 14:35:09 #157 14:35:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20 14:35:17 ... because we have all mustard in non-normative sections 14:35:18 #135 14:35:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 14:35:21 ... so I didn't do that 14:35:26 #127 14:35:27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 14:35:34 #89 14:35:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 14:36:45 action: xfq: add instructions on dark mode to i18n-editors 14:36:54 Created -> action #168 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/168 14:36:57 #33 14:36:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:37:07 #7 14:37:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:37:19 #4 14:37:19 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 14:37:25 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:37:25 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:38:10 r12a: how do you turn on the dark mode? 14:38:32 addison: in specdev if you were looking at the preview in the lower left corner there's a little icon you see the sun and moon thing 14:39:00 https://deploy-preview-130--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/ 14:39:24 r12a: all right, I see it 14:39:39 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:39:39 agendum 4 -- Review RADAR -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:39:48 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:40:11 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:40:11 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:40:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 14:41:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2001 14:41:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2001 -> Issue 2001 Reduce Accept-Language (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [ietf] [s:http] 14:41:53 addison: I have a sense of wanting to escalate this with us 14:43:10 ... any objection to making this needs-resolution? 14:43:12 ... done 14:43:19 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/reduce-accept-language/issues/10 14:43:19 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/reduce-accept-language/issues/10 -> Issue 10 I18N objections to reducing accept-language (by aphillips) 14:45:48 agenda? 14:45:58 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:45:58 agendum 10 -- WebNN -- taken up [from addison] 14:46:12 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/issues/837#issuecomment-2815870541 14:46:12 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/webnn/issues/837 -> Issue 837 String metadata and localization for operator labels (by xfq) [i18n-needs-resolution] 14:47:39 [xfq introduces the issue] 14:47:54 xfq: it doesn't look like natural language string 14:48:02 ... like "mul#1234" 14:48:03 Issue 1234 not found 14:48:32 ... should we ask them to add a note to clarify this? 14:49:07 addison: if it's an identifier then identifierish things should be applied to it 14:49:24 ... for example Trojan Source stuff 14:49:34 ... if you display this value you should guard against bad labels 14:50:44 ... these are for consumption by people, but they are meant to be identifiers 14:50:46 xfq: yeah 14:52:49 rrsagent, make minutes 14:52:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:53:18 zakim, take up agendum 7 14:53:18 agendum 7 -- Notification Email Changes -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:53:59 r12a: I just want to rejig things slightly 14:54:16 ... currently if you're subscribed to the winter list you receive 0 or 2 digests a day 14:54:35 ... one is called reviews and the other one is called something like WG issues 14:54:41 ... I want to make it three 14:54:45 ... a maximum of three 14:54:51 ... one would be called review comments 14:54:58 ... one would be called WG projects 14:55:09 ... the other one would be called language enablement 14:55:18 ... and then we separate out the LE stuff 14:55:22 ... from the WG project 14:55:49 ... splitting that out from the WG project like specdev and charmod stuff 14:56:08 ... split i18n repos into two 14:56:18 ... one is WG project, the other one is LE 14:56:39 addison: would this affect the public list? 14:56:42 r12a: yes 14:56:53 ... public-i18n-core list and the winter list 14:57:30 addison: any objection? 14:57:37 ... martin made a comment on this 14:57:53 r12a: he seemed to be barking up the wrong tree to me 14:58:12 ... he asked how many subscribers each list has and I replied to that 14:58:33 ... you're not getting more content in the emails 14:58:41 ... the amount of content is still the same 14:58:51 ... just splitting things 14:59:26 ... which actually makes it easier for people because if you're not interested in LE you just delete that digest and you focus on the WG projects and vice versa 14:59:27 agenda? 14:59:34 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:59:34 agendum 8 -- Specdev "isomorphic string" PR -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:59:41 https://deploy-preview-158--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char-string-byte-oriented 15:00:23 addison: I have a PR where I've started working on address the last bits of our comments with TAG about their design principles 15:00:39 ... and I'm having a conversation with annevk in the course of doing this 15:00:50 ... because of the weirdness of bytestring in webidl 15:01:23 ... isomorphic string is where you take the byte and you turn it into a Unicode code point 15:01:45 ... 0x80 becomes code point 80 15:02:14 ... I understand why, but they don't say that anywhere 15:02:52 ... send your comments 15:03:13 Bert: a couple of holidays coming up, I won't be here next week and the week after 15:03:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:03:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:04:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:04:13 present+ atsushi 15:04:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/24-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:04:48 zakim, bye 15:04:48 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been addison, Daniel, xfq, Kathy, Helen, r12a, Wilco, Bert, Sage, atsushi 15:04:48 Zakim has left #i18n