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14:37:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/22-ag-irc
14:37:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:37:03 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:37:09 <alastairc> agenda+ Sub-group check-in (what's the status), and questions/answers
14:37:20 <alastairc> agenda+ Unit and Process definitions
14:37:34 <alastairc> zakim, close item 2
14:37:34 <Zakim> agendum 2, Unit and Process definitions, closed
14:37:35 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:37:35 <Zakim> 1. Sub-group check-in (what's the status), and questions/answers [from alastairc]
14:37:49 <alastairc> agenda+ Unit and Process definitions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.yyfjn0xes91s
14:38:00 <alastairc> agenda+ Sub-group work
14:42:29 <alastairc> regrets: JeanneS
14:42:42 <alastairc> regrets+ ShawnT
14:42:57 <alastairc> regrets+ FrankieW
14:47:22 <alastairc> agenda?
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15:00:20 <wendyreid> present+
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15:00:37 <wendyreid> scribe+
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15:02:41 <wendyreid> alastairc: Welcome, is anyone new or wanted to introduce themselves? No announcements today.
15:02:55 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:02:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Sub-group check-in (what's the status), and questions/answers -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:02:55 <wendyreid> ... start off with the first agenda item
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15:03:06 <wendyreid> alastairc: Sub group check in
15:03:22 <wendyreid> ... we haven't done it in a while, idea is that someone from each group could give us an update
15:03:23 <Chuck> q+ to provide help and errors update
15:03:25 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
15:03:26 <joryc> present+
15:03:31 <wendyreid> ... current progress, any blockers or challenges
15:03:37 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:03:45 <wendyreid> ... if there are any issues that are common across groups, we can spend time trying to unblock those
15:03:52 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:03:52 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to provide help and errors update
15:03:54 <todd> todd has joined #ag
15:04:02 <todd> present+
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15:04:19 <wendyreid> Makoto: Almost done with two guidelines, captions and audio description
15:04:23 <steveF> present+
15:04:24 <wendyreid> ... had a question about template
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15:04:32 <wendyreid> ... will the template be updated?
15:04:37 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
15:04:40 <julierawe> present+
15:04:42 <wendyreid> ... we are working with the current one, but can adjust if needed
15:04:43 <AlinaV> present+
15:04:46 <kenneth> present+
15:04:52 <jtoles> present+
15:04:55 <wendyreid> ... we'll start working on the guideline for text alternatives for images next
15:05:02 <wendyreid> alastairc: Thanks, visual appearance?
15:05:28 <julierawe> q+
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15:05:44 <wendyreid> ... it's been a few weeks since I've been able to join, but we were close to wrapping up text appearance aside from i18n considerations
15:05:44 <mbgower> present+
15:05:45 <Tananda> present+
15:06:08 <wendyreid> ... we were working on reflow and density, and out of the requirements for WCAG 3, we're about half way
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15:06:21 <kirkwood> present+
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15:06:22 <wendyreid> ... or 1/3, no particular blockers at the moment.
15:06:28 <DJ> DJ has joined #ag
15:06:33 <wendyreid> ... plain language, consistency, familiarity?
15:06:36 <Jen_G> Present+
15:06:36 <DJ> regrets+
15:06:40 <wendyreid> julierawe: Question about visual appearnace
15:06:54 <wendyreid> ... I saw on the pathways doc that you wanted feedback on i18n?
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15:06:59 <wendyreid> ... would COGA also be helpful?
15:07:06 <ljoakley> presetn+
15:07:32 <wendyreid> alastairc: To be more specific, the i18n help needed is that we have these tables of examples for english, russian, arabic, hindi, we filled in one column, but we need to fill in others
15:07:43 <wendyreid> ... looking for some values to use as a readability baseline
15:07:54 <wendyreid> ... need help from people familiar with those languages
15:08:08 <wendyreid> ... be able to find standards for line-height or other parts of typography
15:08:22 <wendyreid> ... it is quite detailed i18n work, readability in different scripts/languages
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15:08:36 <sarahhorton> present+
15:08:38 <wendyreid> julierawe: Update from plain language, we have two versions of the plain language draft
15:08:45 <wendyreid> ... we send the two to the AG chairs for feedback
15:09:15 <wendyreid> ... if we do it in the streamlined way, there wouldn't be a description of the principles, could we use the what to do section of the document to help people understand
15:09:33 <wendyreid> ... we're hoping to get some feedback from the chairs, which direction we should go in
15:09:49 <wendyreid> ... do people need to go elsewhere or structure the what to do with the explanation built in
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15:10:00 <wendyreid> ... this week we are working on the rest of the items in our path
15:10:06 <BrianE> present+
15:10:13 <Detlev> present+
15:10:15 <wendyreid> alastairc: I saw the email, we'll get back to you
15:10:25 <wendyreid> ... organizational structure
15:10:32 <wendyreid> giacomo-petri: We are working on the methods
15:11:04 <wendyreid> ... while doing this we were wondering about lists, trees and menu items or options in a dropdown may be perceived as lists
15:11:12 <wendyreid> ... we worked on including them in the decision tree
15:11:16 <wendyreid> ... we are progressing
15:11:23 <wendyreid> alastairc: Inputs?
15:11:26 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cxiE1rfpmYs0fmS1CDyRGq-_-_mTghz7vRlGcAhgWLc/
15:11:33 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: Link from our scratchpad
15:11:58 <wendyreid> ... we've evolved from keyboard only to keyboard, to requirements that touch on input and explore them
15:12:19 <wendyreid> ... keyboard-only ended up being the mothership of many requirements, we have a composite requirement
15:12:26 <wendyreid> ... meeting twice a week to clean this up
15:12:32 <wendyreid> ... getting ready to present
15:12:44 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Should we mention they are mostly finished and we're working on the template?
15:13:07 <wendyreid> alastairc: The keyboard-only part is done, and there are others?
15:13:18 <wendyreid> GreggVan: If you go in, you'll see they are all completed
15:13:22 <wendyreid> ... we're working on the template
15:13:33 <wendyreid> ... bruce_bailey do you think it will be ready after today?
15:13:47 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: I'll look forward to the chairs giving us a deadline to work towards
15:13:55 <wendyreid> ... we're also working on methods and decision trees
15:14:12 <wendyreid> ... we were able to divide into requirements and sub-requirements, but they've been pretty flat
15:14:54 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Question, you told us before to work down to methods, we've gotten them completed down to the methods point, do you want us to do the techniques or just what is going into the draft?
15:15:16 <wendyreid> alastairc: If you finish everything, go ahead and do techniques, but it sounds like you'll be good for cross-review soon
15:15:22 <wendyreid> ... interaction and AT support?
15:15:57 <wendyreid> ... help, errors, feedback and triggers?
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15:16:20 <wendyreid> Chuck: We have a fairly solid applicability tree, we contemplated different circumstances that needed to be branched off
15:16:43 <wendyreid> ... error is not a result of data in single input, what about inputs in relation to each other, like a start/finish date.
15:16:43 <kirkwood> link to help/errors?
15:17:12 <wendyreid> ... we have also realized that as we have put the trees together, we came up with terms that helped conceptualize the thoughts, we now need to provide definitions
15:17:37 <wendyreid> ... the question we have is to the group, is inputs working on the concept from WCAG2 about change of context on input
15:18:20 <wendyreid> ... error states for data introduced elsewhere, we were concerned that we might be responsible for the change of context on input but we're not proceeding like we're responsible for that
15:18:27 <wendyreid> ... is there a subgroup handling that concept?
15:18:30 <alastairc> q?
15:18:39 <alastairc> julierawe - had you gone?
15:19:06 <wendyreid> GreggVan: The change of context has to do with only if the user requests it, to do with input, I am trying to figure out if it falls under input
15:19:08 <Glenda> present+
15:19:14 <wendyreid> alastairc: I can try and help with the question
15:19:30 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:19:33 <wendyreid> ... we have several requirements for interaction and AT support for context change and such, it might be related
15:19:50 <wendyreid> Chuck: Interaction and AT support might handle calling out violations, we don't need to be concerned
15:20:01 <wendyreid> alastairc: I don't think so, make a note though
15:20:15 <alastairc> ack julierawe
15:20:18 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
15:20:22 <bruce_bailey> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cxiE1rfpmYs0fmS1CDyRGq-_-_mTghz7vRlGcAhgWLc/edit?tab=t.1t09ra11jl6v#heading=h.elegnq9r3m1
15:20:52 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: To build on Gregg and Chuck, I added a heading, we planned not to touch hover information, but it's important to keyboard operability, check all areas of the page for popups
15:20:57 <bruce_bailey> Check all areas of the page to see if something pops up or replaces part of the content when the pointer is moved over all elements on the page
15:21:03 <wendyreid> ... it's part of our testing algorithms
15:21:10 <wendyreid> alastairc: Potentially overlapping?
15:21:18 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Is it?
15:21:45 <wendyreid> alastairc: There's a couple of requirements around change of requirements or inform before activation, I don't think there's an overlap in the requirements themselves but we'll have to look
15:21:51 <wendyreid> ... last one is safety and deception
15:22:21 <wendyreid> todd: Attendance has been spotty, I've been working on applicability trees for each of our topics, I'll share a link to the document
15:23:14 <wendyreid> ... not sure if my email is getting through, if you're in the group please checkout the github repo and see if there is anything we can pull out, if not we can move on
15:23:24 <wendyreid> ... I need a way to effectively communicate that
15:23:32 <wendyreid> ... my email for W3C may be going into spam folders?
15:24:04 <todd> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_f3cJ2Wvnv7Q56QDPvGUADE_JQ7HiyOYYREDiaQpPmM/edit?usp=sharing
15:24:05 <wendyreid> ... other than that we're working async, that's all I have for now
15:24:25 <wendyreid> alastairc: Motion and motion for help are in the interaction pathway, but not sure how it ended up with you, but maybe for something else
15:24:37 <wendyreid> todd: There was possibly some useful info, but nothing I've seen
15:25:07 <wendyreid> [crosstalk the scribe missed]
15:25:12 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ecg9qFIUVCUQfAPgNSEZ8MmsCSjbAynK8hbGBU8NrzQ/edit?gid=2035961492#gid=2035961492
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15:25:25 <Chall> present+
15:26:15 <wendyreid> alastairc: Any questions?
15:26:23 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:26:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Unit and Process definitions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.yyfjn0xes91s -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:26:27 <wendyreid> ... chairs will discuss the specific questions this week and get back to you
15:26:35 <wendyreid> ... next item is about the unit and process definitions
15:26:43 <wendyreid> ... there's been a lot of holidays in the last week
15:26:55 <wendyreid> ... thought it was worth going through an update
15:27:02 <wendyreid> [share screen]
15:27:21 <wendyreid> alastairc: I went through everything that was said and added, I focused on the smallest thing and then worked up
15:27:27 <wendyreid> ... trying not to name these things get
15:27:32 <filippo-zorzi> present+
15:27:33 <wendyreid> s/get/yet
15:27:57 <wendyreid> alastairc: There is potentially value in figuring out the smallest thing we could define
15:28:06 <GreggVan> q+
15:28:10 <wendyreid> ... level one, then groupings of things
15:28:12 <wendyreid> q+
15:28:23 <GreggVan> present+
15:28:24 <wendyreid> alastairc: Control, user interface control, menu
15:28:38 <wendyreid> ... focusing on the interactive
15:28:54 <wendyreid> ... then the next level user interface context
15:29:12 <wendyreid> ... if more than 50% of things change its a new context
15:29:26 <ljoakley> q+
15:29:37 <wendyreid> ... then last level is a process or task, a series of UI contexts or tasks, required to complete an activity from end to end
15:29:49 <wendyreid> ... last level is product/claim scope
15:30:23 <wendyreid> ... a set of UI contexts that are part of a conformance claim, similar to WCAG2, if something is part of a process, you must include the process
15:30:38 <wendyreid> ... we'll provide informative guidance on determining a conformance claim
15:30:43 <wendyreid> ... a few related definitions
15:30:50 <wendyreid> ... content, closely available
15:30:55 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:31:04 <mbgower> q+ to say i would remove "each" from the process description. Some steps can potentially be skipped in a process.
15:31:15 <wendyreid> GreggVan: First, when you talk about 50%, can you change to x%? Allow us to discuss the percentage
15:31:29 <wendyreid> ... you said associated components, how do we define components
15:31:44 <wendyreid> alastairc: A grouping of items to make an interactive component for a distinct function.
15:31:57 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Concern I have, what if you do something and all of the text changes
15:32:12 <wendyreid> ... no interactive components, is it not a change in context if the content changes?
15:32:23 <wendyreid> ... vs saying number of characters or words
15:32:47 <wendyreid> alastairc: Something to worry about in the requirements themselves?
15:33:16 <wendyreid> GreggVan: We're defining it here, I'm trying to figure this out, I don't have an answer, there may be an issue in referring to interactive components
15:33:33 <wendyreid> ... it can't just be interactive, but % might introduce other problems
15:33:45 <wendyreid> ... above and below may introduce other challenges
15:34:26 <wendyreid> ... change of UI context may be different, we're possibly mixing the meaning of "context"
15:34:43 <wendyreid> alastairc: We haven't used "change of context" in WCAG3 yet
15:34:52 <wendyreid> GreggVan: One or the other should get a name change
15:34:52 <alastairc> ack wendyreid
15:35:23 <GreggVan> q+
15:35:31 <Chuck> wendyreid:  I'm wondering if we are over-complicating this.  These are concepts from user experience design and industrial design.  Are there existing definitions that are familiar to industry?
15:35:48 <alastairc> q+ on familiar vs unique terms
15:36:09 <Chuck> wendyreid:  Some use "atomic design".  I wonder if there is existing language that is clearly defined and recognize, so that we need not re-invent the wheel, if this is well established industrial standard.
15:36:16 <alastairc> ack ljoakley
15:36:38 <wendyreid> ljoakley: Thank you wendyreid, I was going to make similar comments, web design has been around for a long time, we have terms, I like the unit idea to move into component
15:36:55 <wendyreid> ... would like to move away from "control", we can control all sorts of things, it applies to many things
15:37:01 <mbgower> q-
15:37:07 <wendyreid> ... component is a specific piece made up of other pieces
15:37:24 <wendyreid> ... using unit and component is what I use with my users and it helps people who don't normally do accessibility work
15:37:34 <wendyreid> ... it helps them understand where the errors are
15:37:35 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:37:52 <wendyreid> GreggVan: You might want to note the concern about context so we don't trip on it later
15:37:58 <wendyreid> ... you talked about name and things with a name
15:38:14 <wendyreid> ... the characters on a page, are you talking about a programmatic name, we have labels and names
15:38:22 <wendyreid> ... programmatically determinable name
15:38:28 <wendyreid> alastairc: Yes, accessible name
15:39:08 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Maybe we want to clarify that, non-programmers may not understand
15:39:48 <wendyreid> ... other one is you might have covered by the explainer, I want to warn us against trying to create a taxonomy for controls when the only thing that matters is evaluation units
15:40:10 <wendyreid> ... we need to have a name for the thing below the evaluation unit
15:40:21 <wendyreid> ... to stick with the stuff we actually have a use for
15:40:30 <alastairc> ack alastairc
15:40:30 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on familiar vs unique terms
15:40:55 <wendyreid> alastairc: wendyreid and ljoakley were talking about people defining these terms before, they tend to define things in varying ways
15:41:13 <wendyreid> ... if anyone knows of a set of terms that would fit well with WCAG3. I agree with Gregg that we only should use what we need
15:41:33 <wendyreid> ... I did find it difficult to define the one we need, UI context, without a definition of interactive components
15:42:13 <wendyreid> ... I've kept it to interactive components, things, it helps if we have a grouping of interactive things like a menu, if you're looking at an interface with various things, more substantial
15:42:20 <wendyreid> ... it makes the next level up easier to define
15:42:38 <wendyreid> ... the problem when looking at design systems with atoms and such, we don't want to define each thing
15:42:58 <wendyreid> ... design systems define everything, like paragraphs, it doesn't quite work in the context of what we're trying to do here
15:43:01 <alastairc> q?
15:43:13 <kirkwood> “ interactive elements”
15:43:21 <wendyreid> GreggVan: A good point to make, if the interactive thing is the menu, the order of items in the menu needs to be consistent
15:43:32 <alastairc> q+ on when these can be useful - focus styles
15:43:49 <alastairc> ack me
15:43:49 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on when these can be useful - focus styles
15:43:53 <wendyreid> ... does it have a name, just putting an ! on your point, sometimes we need to look at individual items in the whole
15:44:06 <wendyreid> alastairc: We had this in WCAG2, how do we apply focus styles, what size
15:44:32 <wendyreid> ... for things like a dropdown, it might be that the dropdown has the focus but you're selecting an item with in the dropdown with active style instead of focus
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15:44:46 <Kimberly> present+
15:44:47 <wendyreid> ... there's things we could have done in WCAG2 but we had other definitions in place
15:44:56 <wendyreid> ... focus style had components and sub-components
15:45:32 <wendyreid> ... if we get the concepts right, the names might get easier
15:45:58 <kirkwood> An interactive component is a reusable, pre-designed UI element with built-in interactions, while interactive elements are any elements that can be interacted with by the user. Essentially, interactive components are a higher-level category of interactive elements, encompassing multiple interactive elements within a single, reusable unit.
15:46:07 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pN6zc0YjxY2TmhmrSii0Y5ghzjdNOqMV5F4a_Dfqsyo/edit?tab=t.yyfjn0xes91s
15:46:08 <wendyreid> ... webpage, user interface context, are they included in your requirements, do these definitions help or hinder?
15:46:25 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/286#discussioncomment-12670208
15:46:27 <GreggVan> q+
15:46:33 <wendyreid> ... please pop ideas in the discussion
15:46:44 <alastairc> ack GreggVan
15:47:14 <wendyreid> GreggVan: Question before breakouts, you have us working on the fundamental and supplemental requirements, we're also finding that we might need to organize them differently under guidelines
15:47:25 <wendyreid> ... inputs might have gesture, but other gesture things in another guideline
15:47:42 <wendyreid> ... as part of our remit, could they organized differently?
15:48:01 <wendyreid> alastairc: As long as its in your pathway, feel free to organize as you wish, but if it crosses into another check with that group
15:48:08 <wendyreid> ... any other questions before the breakouts?
15:48:52 <wendyreid> ... please join subgroups!
15:50:25 <ChrisLoiselle> partial regrets for 2nd hour , apologies.
15:50:26 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:50:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/22-ag-minutes.html alastairc
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