13:34:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:34:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-wcag2ict-irc
13:34:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:34:25 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:34:29 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
13:34:29 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:34:37 <ChrisLoiselle> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller , Chris Loiselle
13:34:44 <ChrisLoiselle> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:34:52 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
13:34:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
13:35:15 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:35:15 <Zakim> ok, ChrisLoiselle
13:35:42 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ Announcements
13:36:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ PR to update WCAG2ICT overview page to incorporate our "explainer" content
13:36:27 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled (RE:ERROR spotted in WCAG2ICT)
13:36:39 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+2.1.1 Keyboard Note 1 proposed edits
13:36:58 <ChrisLoiselle> Agenda+Analysis for SC language changes spreadsheet
13:45:05 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:50:04 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:50:09 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
13:56:57 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:39 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:01:08 <LauraM> LauraM has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:12 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:42 <mitch11> present+
14:03:20 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:31 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:04:59 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:05:05 <mitch11> q+ to say I will be putting my work on hold for the Task Force, given other demands on my time. maryjom we can talk about whether I should resign or just send a longer-term "regrets"?
14:05:46 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:05:56 <LauraM> present+
14:06:00 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:06:00 <Zakim> mitch, you wanted to say I will be putting my work on hold for the Task Force, given other demands on my time. maryjom we can talk about whether I should resign or just send a
14:06:03 <Zakim> ... longer-term "regrets"?
14:06:24 <LauraM> scribe+ LauraM
14:06:34 <bruce_bailey> s/bruce_bailey take up item 1 ?//
14:07:07 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:07:32 <LauraM> Mitch11 standing regrets and will stay on the task force on a "on demand" basis.
14:07:46 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:07:47 <LauraM> ack Bruce_bailey
14:08:05 <LauraM> Bruce_bailey: hoping mitch can monitor the progress and comment as needed.
14:08:17 <LauraM> Mitch11: I will be on the EN 301 549 updates.
14:08:34 <maryjom> present+
14:08:37 <LauraM> Zakim, next item
14:08:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:08:39 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:08:52 <LauraM> zakim, next item
14:08:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, LauraM
14:09:26 <LauraM> Maryjom: WCAG2 Mobile working draft will be published. . . today?
14:09:32 <LauraM> zakim, next item
14:09:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, LauraM
14:09:46 <LauraM> Maryjom: only announcement.
14:09:51 <LauraM> zakim, next item
14:09:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- PR to update WCAG2ICT overview page to incorporate our "explainer" content -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:10:28 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: Next item, the review of PR 1197 WCAG2ICT overview updates page to incorporate our explainer content.
14:10:39 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wai-website/pull/1197
14:10:40 <maryjom> PR: https://github.com/w3c/wai-website/pull/1197/files
14:10:48 <ChrisLoiselle> https://deploy-preview-1197--wai-website.netlify.app/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/
14:11:46 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: Following that is the actual preview of the page. Update - I have this issue in play, it is in draft status. I have been taking feedback from this group and incorporating it into the draft. Feedback from Daniel, maryjom, etc., ongoing conversations about methodology and what we agreed to.
14:11:49 <bruce_bailey> Related to ACL topic before call started:  https://www.hhs.gov/press-room/hhs-restructuring-doge.html
14:12:07 <GreggVan> q+
14:12:24 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:12:26 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: Open to feedback from the group.
14:12:30 <LauraM> ack GreggVan
14:12:32 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:12:41 <LauraM> GreggVan: this is replacing our explainer doc?
14:12:49 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: Yes.
14:12:58 <LauraM> GreggVan: Looks nice and will be found by AIs
14:13:11 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:13:16 <LauraM> Maryjom: Bring up some of the points brought up by Daniel
14:13:46 <GreggVan> ack gregg
14:14:03 <LauraM> ack Bruce_bailey
14:14:08 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:14:16 <LauraM> Bruce_bailey:  daniel is not on the call.
14:14:45 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: normative guidance and informative guidance, Daniel wanted to remove.
14:15:17 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wai-website/pull/1197/files
14:17:07 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:17:46 <LauraM> GreggVan: Does not want to remove the links.
14:17:54 <LauraM> Maryjom: Agree, don't want to remove links.
14:18:52 <bruce_bailey> Daniels suggested edits and inline comments also available from conversation thread in PR (and that might be easier to ready than the side-by-side)
14:18:54 <bruce_bailey> https://github.com/w3c/wai-website/pull/1197/#issuecomment-2794073514
14:21:36 <LauraM> GreggVan: Taking issue with "challenges".
14:21:39 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:21:52 <LauraM> GreggVan: Sounds like a euphemism for what we are talking about (explanations etc)
14:22:37 <LauraM> GreggVan: a) we mean both explanations and difficulties. b) according to WCAG working group practice, web is only capitalized when it is not an adjective.
14:22:39 <LauraM> No action.
14:23:07 <LauraM> Daniel also wanted to delete "not all ICT have this concept" specifically the presence of a browser.
14:23:46 <LauraM> Maryjom and ChrisLoiselle: this changes the meaning to something we didn't agree upon.
14:24:29 <LauraM> GreggVan: Not all ICT have user agents for underlying platform (suggested replacement)
14:27:15 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:27:59 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: do we want Daniel to comment or approve?
14:28:05 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:29:30 <LauraM> On goals and intent (line 74/75). GreggVan likes Daniel's version
14:29:36 <LauraM> Maryjom: agree. Accept that.
14:29:41 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:31:09 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:31:20 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:31:33 <LauraM> Line 85. Do not accept. Policy makers is more accurate.
14:31:40 <LauraM> ack bruce_bailey
14:31:58 <LauraM> bruce_bailey: should we add Lawyers?
14:32:18 <LauraM> GreggVan: No, lawyers should not be invited to use it because it is not normative.
14:32:23 <bruce_bailey> I am satisfied that "litigation" is covered by policy makers.
14:33:15 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:33:19 <LauraM> GreggVan: Keep Policy makers. Don't add regulators. Would also then need to add lawyers.
14:35:36 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:35:46 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:35:59 <LauraM> ack bruce_bailey
14:36:08 <LauraM> bruce_bailey same issue on line 89
14:36:13 <LauraM> Copy answer.
14:36:18 <LauraM> Also decline to accept
14:37:11 <LauraM> Line 86
14:37:15 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:37:24 <LauraM> GreggVan: keep a link.
14:37:34 <LauraM> bruce_bailey change the source.
14:37:46 <LauraM> GreggVan: changed mind, let's get rid of the link.
14:38:03 <LauraM> Maryjom: We will not change non-web to non-Web
14:38:08 <LauraM> (partial accept.)
14:39:28 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:40:59 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:42:50 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:44:22 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:46:36 <LauraM> Line 127 - Daniel suggested to remove a few of the links and keep the link to the task for page.
14:46:41 <bruce_bailey> This is the page we are replacing:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/
14:46:43 <LauraM> GreggVan: Agree with that change.
14:46:51 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:46:59 <LauraM> Maryjom: Keeping one link and getting rid of the rest. Agree
14:47:03 <LauraM> And that's all of the changes.
14:47:08 <LauraM> Resolved.
14:47:40 <LauraM> Maryjom: until the next round of comments. Let's commit. I will send an email to Daniel saying we have gone through them all.
14:47:52 <LauraM> zakim, next item
14:47:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled (RE:ERROR spotted in WCAG2ICT) -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:48:10 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: EN 301 549 topics. 2.4.2 page title.
14:48:18 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:48:40 <bruce_bailey> scribe+
14:49:04 <bruce_bailey> ChrisLoiselle:  Gregg and Bruce have conversation in GitHub
14:49:25 <bruce_bailey> GreggV:  For page title we should say does not apply.
14:50:05 <bruce_bailey> ... Unless we get more details with view / page view we are stuck with current glossary
14:50:24 <bruce_bailey> ... to have requirement that 90% of software fails is no good
14:50:24 <mitch11> q+
14:50:25 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Page title should not apply .  Unless we talk to views and sub context. We can't make a requirement a name of a software indicates what the software is about.
14:50:27 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:50:41 <bruce_bailey> ... and product names do not describe topic or purpose
14:51:00 <ChrisLoiselle> For web app, we don't require it.
14:51:00 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:51:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:51:07 <bruce_bailey> ... we don't require web apps to change, only for new URLs
14:51:23 <ChrisLoiselle> Mitch: What do we mean by describe.
14:51:36 <bruce_bailey> mitch11:  It comes down to what we mean by "describe" and "describe topic or purpose"
14:51:41 <LauraM> (back).
14:51:46 <ChrisLoiselle> Mitch : A single word can describe the purpose.
14:51:55 <bruce_bailey> ... i think a single word can describe topic
14:51:59 <LauraM> GreggVan: that's not the name of the software.
14:52:11 <bruce_bailey> scribe-
14:52:22 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
14:52:25 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:52:38 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:52:54 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
14:53:03 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: For me removing myself from the group and coming in from someone not native to what we are talking about.. . .if you've never used Word, do you know it's an editor?
14:53:26 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:53:27 <GreggVan> q+
14:53:34 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:53:48 <LauraM> bruce_bailey: we are restating our same opinions.
14:54:16 <LauraM> bruce_bailey: checked with Kathy Eng on the software baseline. It also sanctions using product name as title in 2.2
14:54:18 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Product name as title would meet 2.4.2
14:54:19 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:54:19 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:54:38 <bruce_bailey> i am all for hand-waving
14:54:47 <LauraM> GreggVan: I don't care what anyone on their own decides, it is contrary to the language. It doesn't matter what someone thinks we have to meet the letter of the regulation.
14:54:59 <mitch11> q+
14:55:35 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:56:28 <LauraM> GreggVan: what you are saying is that no matter what it is, it meet the criteria.
14:56:33 <LauraM> s/meet/meets
14:56:39 <bruce_bailey> i think TF has two choices, (1) deem product names as sufficient for meeting 2.4.2; or (2) say 2.4.2 is not applicable to non-web software
14:56:40 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:57:33 <GreggVan> q+
14:57:56 <LauraM> mitch11: paraphrasing my comment. . .using your example, as an evaluator I would look at the software or webpage and determine if it is related to/about the title (product or service name, geographical place etc). If it is not at all related, described by it, or it's purpose, it would fail.
14:58:08 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:58:11 <LauraM> ack GreggVan
14:58:16 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:58:54 <LauraM> GreggVan: we are not talking about web pages, we are talking about software. According to you, the name of the software must be the name of the software. Whatever it is.
14:59:20 <ChrisLoiselle> TF has two choices, (1) deem product names as sufficient for meeting 2.4.2; or (2) say 2.4.2 is not applicable to non-web software
14:59:23 <LauraM> GreggVan: that's a silly regulation.
14:59:24 <bruce_bailey> i am okay with "the name of your product must be the name of your product"
14:59:53 <LauraM> ChrisLoiselle: take up next week. Need to establish that the product name is sufficient or that it is not.
14:59:59 <bruce_bailey> i have a draft PR for each of those
15:00:34 <maryjom> We're not saying "the name of your product must be the name of your product" we're saying "the name of your product can be an acceptable title.
15:01:02 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:01:11 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:01:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisLoiselle, mitch, bruce_bailey, LauraM, maryjom
15:01:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:01:21 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:01:23 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:01:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items