15:09:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:09:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-irc
15:09:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
15:09:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:10:35 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:10:35 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:10:53 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG
15:11:15 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e99f9039-f9bc-4333-b7a1-dd4c5a02d8b2/20250417T120000/
15:11:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:11:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:11:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Council Report on Charter -> 3 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/rdf-star-council-report.html#decision
15:11:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Wide Review
15:11:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:11:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:11:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:11:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:11:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:11:36 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG -- 2025-04-17 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e99f9039-f9bc-4333-b7a1-dd4c5a02d8b2/20250417T120000/
15:11:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:53:45 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
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15:58:08 <ktk> agenda?
15:58:18 <ktk> present+
15:58:24 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
15:58:34 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:58:35 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
15:59:31 <pfps> present+
16:00:11 <olaf> present+
16:00:24 <AndyS> present+
16:00:29 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:00:34 <gtw> present+
16:00:35 <TallTed> present+
16:00:38 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:00:40 <ora> present+
16:00:41 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
16:00:43 <ora> chair+
16:00:47 <fsasaki> present+
16:01:14 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:01:32 <AZ> present+
16:01:38 <TallTed> scribe: TallTed
16:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:02:12 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:02:15 <niklasl> present+
16:02:21 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:02:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:02:25 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:02:30 <Tpt> regrets for today
16:02:41 <TallTed> regrets+ Tpt
16:02:55 <tl> present+
16:03:00 <ktk> regrets+ doerthe
16:03:05 <pchampin> present+
16:03:19 <ktk> regrets+ Dominik_T
16:03:27 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:29 <pfps> Minutes look acceptable to me.
16:03:31 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:05 <TallTed> ora: I sent regrets for April 3, so no comment on those minutes
16:04:32 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes for the last two meetings.
16:04:42 <AZ> +1
16:04:42 <olaf> +1
16:04:42 <ktk> +1
16:04:42 <tl> +1
16:04:44 <fsasaki> +1
16:04:44 <gtw> +1
16:04:48 <ora> +0.5 (only present in one of the two)
16:04:50 <TallTed> <TallTed> +1
16:04:52 <niklasl> +1
16:05:00 <james> +1
16:05:12 <pchampin> +1
16:05:15 <AndyS> +1
16:05:21 <pfps> +1
16:05:26 <william-vw> william-vw has joined #rdf-star
16:05:28 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve minutes for the last two meetings.
16:05:30 <william-vw> present+
16:05:32 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Council Report on Charter -> 3 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/rdf-star-council-report.html#decision -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:43 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:06:59 <TallTed> pchampin: The Council over-rode the objection, so we're free to proceed, but also noted a bug in this charter which was inherited from the previous charter, which they recommended we fix before publishing the new charter.
16:07:07 <gkellogg> present+
16:07:15 <TallTed> ... Expect publication next week.
16:07:40 <TallTed> ... Echidna auto-publication is temporarily disabled, pending flip to new charter.
16:08:24 <AndyS> regrets+ Dominik_T
16:08:24 <ktk> q?
16:08:31 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:08:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Wide Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:08:32 <AndyS> q+
16:08:38 <ora> ack AndyS
16:09:12 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:09:20 <TallTed> AndyS: noticed a group rename suggestion in the Council report. Is that happening?
16:09:21 <enrico> present+
16:10:12 <TallTed> pchampin: RDF-star WG was named based on then-forecast work. Shape has changed since then. Council said we can rename, but it's not mandatory from their perspective.
16:10:33 <gkellogg> +1 to rename the group.
16:10:45 <TallTed> ... The easy way is to not rename, but given everything else happening, this might be best time for it.
16:10:45 <james> q+
16:10:52 <pchampin> s/agendum 3 -- Wide Review -- taken up [from agendabot]/
16:11:03 <niklasl> +1 for renaming if it's "easy" enough
16:11:05 <ora> ack james
16:11:42 <TallTed> james: Misunderstandings stemming from current name were raised as a concern, lending weight to renaming.
16:11:44 <william-vw> +1 for renaming
16:11:57 <AndyS> Preference for renaming, subject to practicality (would it be easier later?)
16:12:24 <TallTed> pchampin: will be meeting with Philippe tomorrow, could include this in that conversation
16:12:28 <tl> +1 to re-naming
16:13:01 <TallTed> ... understanding is that this is basically a label change which can be done with existing URLs, which can be updated later
16:13:47 <TallTed> <TallTed> new short-name seems the biggest challenge
16:14:01 <ora> STRAWPOLL: Rename the WG to "RDF and SPARQL WG"?
16:14:02 <TallTed> s/<TallTed> new/TallTed: new/
16:14:07 <AndyS> pchampin's suggestion of "relabel/shallow" and sort out the rest over time
16:14:10 <james> +1
16:14:10 <gkellogg> +1
16:14:10 <william-vw> +1
16:14:11 <fsasaki> +0
16:14:11 <tl> +1
16:14:11 <pfps> +0
16:14:12 <pchampin> +1
16:14:13 <enrico> +1
16:14:13 <gtw> +0
16:14:13 <ora> 0
16:14:14 <niklasl> +1
16:14:14 <TallTed> <TallTed> +1
16:14:15 <AndyS> +1
16:14:15 <ktk> +1
16:14:17 <AZ> +1
16:14:19 <olaf> +0.5
16:14:53 <TallTed> ora: I see no objections, so chairs will discuss at their next meeting
16:15:30 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:15:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:15:30 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:15:32 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, TallTed
16:15:39 <pchampin> topic: Wide Review
16:15:48 <pchampin> s/agendum 4 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]/
16:16:11 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:16:20 <eBremer> present+
16:16:57 <TallTed> pchampin: rdf-concepts will be moved to CR ASAP. Call for Wide Review must be issued first.
16:17:34 <eBremer8> eBremer8 has joined #rdf-star
16:17:51 <TallTed> ... These go to the usual suspects, plus those listed in charter
16:18:12 <TallTed> ora: is there a time limit for this?
16:18:21 <TallTed> pchampin: we have to give them a reasonable window
16:18:40 <pchampin> q+
16:18:45 <ora> ack pchampin
16:18:55 <TallTed> ora: we'll prepare email for when WG decides Concepts is ready
16:19:40 <TallTed> pchampin: We can start Wide Review before we've addressed all editorial issues, as long as substantive changes don't come in
16:19:59 <james> q+
16:20:14 <ora> ack james
16:21:00 <TallTed> james: Do we (pchampin) consider issue 128 to be editorial?
16:21:29 <TallTed> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128
16:21:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128 -> Issue 128 map the annotation syntax to `rdfs:states` (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing]
16:21:49 <tl> q+
16:22:17 <ora> ack tl
16:22:21 <TallTed> pchampin: yes, that's potentially significant, and needs resolution before concepts goes to wide review
16:22:47 <AndyS> We ought to get the "version" section (PR on concepts : 187) which should be soon anyway.
16:22:53 <TallTed> tl: we could perhaps discuss this next week?
16:23:23 <pfps> q+
16:23:35 <james> q+
16:23:40 <pchampin> note that figures are non-normative, so any change in the figure would be editorial (not to minimize their importance, though)
16:23:43 <ora> ack pfps
16:23:48 <TallTed> ... Outside comments might be helpful
16:24:13 <ora> ack james
16:24:20 <TallTed> pfps: It seems better to dispose of issues rather than deferring them. WG should make a decision and move forward.
16:25:07 <TallTed> james: people will react differently to a CR than otherwise, but this should be flagged somehow in the document as an issue under discussion
16:25:19 <TallTed> ora: we should discuss this next week
16:25:46 <TallTed> agenda?
16:26:25 <pchampin> zakim, open item 4
16:26:25 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:26:55 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
16:26:55 <TallTed> ora: we have one topic (https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128) ... and a list
16:26:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128 -> Issue 128 map the annotation syntax to `rdfs:states` (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing]
16:27:17 <AndyS> q+
16:27:25 <ora> ack AndyS
16:27:53 <niklasl> I agree; same for item 11?
16:27:54 <TallTed> AndyS: can we remove https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141 ?
16:27:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141 -> Issue 141 Which parties carry what costs of text/turtle changes, and do those outweigh which benefits for whom? (by RubenVerborgh)
16:28:01 <niklasl> (and 12)
16:28:15 <pchampin> q+
16:29:17 <ora> ack pchampin
16:29:20 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/135
16:29:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/135 -> Issue 135 naming RDF 1.2 without triple terms (by pfps) [needs discussion]
16:30:01 <niklasl> q+
16:30:21 <TallTed> pchampin: we made a resolution long ago, but never applied it to the documents. "classic" vs "basic" or some such, for "RDF 1.2 except triple terms"
16:30:57 <ora> ack niklasl
16:31:02 <TallTed> ... this also blocks wide review, because it's in the conformance section
16:31:21 <TallTed> niklasl: quick discussion next week should settle this
16:31:54 <TallTed> ora: so we're adding https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/70 to the list for next week
16:31:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/70 -> Issue 70 Define RDF 1.2 Basic profile (by gkellogg) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
16:32:16 <TallTed> ora: anything else?
16:32:19 <niklasl> q+
16:32:26 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/170
16:32:26 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/170 -> Issue 170 Decide names and namespace for constituent properties of classic triple terms (by niklasl)
16:32:28 <ora> ack niklasl
16:33:00 <tl> q+
16:33:07 <TallTed> niklasl: Not sure whether rdf-concepts issue 170 needs broad discussion, or bikeshedding elsewhere
16:33:17 <ora> ack tl
16:33:35 <TallTed> tl: Semantics TF talked about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/127 last week
16:33:36 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/127 -> Issue 127 what properties can or should link to triple terms? (by afs) [needs discussion]
16:33:48 <TallTed> ... maybe that should come to the whole WG?
16:34:28 <TallTed> ora: that makes sense, plus 170, as raised by niklasl
16:34:49 <TallTed> ora: that should be enough to fill next meeting
16:34:55 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:34:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:36:03 <TallTed> pchampin: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/55 pending charter fixes
16:36:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/55 -> Action 55 setup echidna in all GH repository (on pchampin) due 27 Apr 2023
16:36:30 <TallTed> ... https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/149 should be quick after chat with ???
16:36:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/149 -> Action 149 Add reference to appendix d on reification  of 1.1 semantics spec in section 8 of concepts spec (on pchampin) due 2025-03-07
16:36:58 <TallTed> ora: and that's related to enrico's action, https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/148
16:36:59 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/148 -> Action 148 delete reification subsection from appendix D of semantics spec (on franconi) due 2025-03-07
16:37:11 <TallTed> niklasl: no substantial progress on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150
16:37:12 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150 -> Action 150 Create note on triple term owlification (on niklasl) due 2025-03-07
16:37:26 <TallTed> ora: who wants to take on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115 ?
16:37:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115 -> Action 115 add tests for entailment of triple terms (on )
16:37:36 <ora> q?
16:37:44 <gkellogg> q+
16:38:19 <TallTed> gkellogg: there are two aspects to this. One is creating inputs and expected outputs. Second is making them run in a test manifest form.
16:38:28 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:38:30 <TallTed> ... Maybe a wiki to suggest the inputs/outputs?
16:38:51 <TallTed> ora: sounds good. any volunteers to help gkellogg with that?
16:39:03 <TallTed> pchampin: happy to help. can't take lead on this one.
16:39:23 <TallTed> niklasl: will also help as needed
16:39:32 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:39:32 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:39:49 <AndyS> q+
16:40:10 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:40:10 <ora> ack AndyS
16:40:37 <TallTed> AndyS: Not in that list yet, is draft PR working on SPARQL namespace document
16:41:13 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/202
16:41:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/202 -> Issue 202 Populate the https://www.w3.org/ns/sparql# namespace document (by afs) [spec:substantive]
16:41:21 <AndyS> PR 204
16:41:26 <olaf> q+
16:41:39 <TallTed> ... question is https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/204
16:41:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/204 -> Pull Request 204 SPARQL Namespace Document (by afs)
16:41:41 <ora> ack olaf
16:42:28 <TallTed> AndyS: goal is to name the query forms
16:42:51 <TallTed> ... put in all functions, because SHACL is likely to want their URIs
16:45:16 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182
16:45:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182 -> Pull Request 182 Declare advisement level keywords for non-normative content in Conformance (by csarven) [spec:editorial]
16:45:47 <TallTed> ktk: 182 should be closed? because we(?) decided not to include that wording?
16:46:42 <TallTed> AndyS: conceptually, this idea is fine, but in practice, doing exactly what's there would be a huge effort across all the documents, especially where wording was inherited from long-previous WGs
16:46:49 <niklasl> +1 to AndyS
16:47:22 <pfps> q+
16:47:37 <gtw> scribe+
16:47:51 <gtw> TallTed: do we have a tag for future-work?
16:48:13 <gtw> ... wont-fix seems like closing a door.
16:48:21 <ora> ack pfps
16:49:38 <TallTed> pfps: I think we should NOT make this change because of potential to miss some instances, leading to some middle ground problem
16:50:16 <niklasl> q+
16:50:32 <ora> ack niklasl
16:51:11 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:51:18 <ktk> q?
16:51:35 <TallTed> niklasl: seems to be about accessibility concerns
16:53:51 <pchampin> i|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182|subtopic: PR w3c/rdf-concepts#182
16:54:06 <pfps> I also think that we should close this with no action because it is really asking for a change in how BCP 14 is signalled in W3C documents.
16:54:09 <TallTed> ora: maybe we leave this to be after REC, if someone feels strongly at that point
16:54:12 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:54:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:55:34 <pchampin> s|agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html --|
16:55:41 <TallTed> enrico: Semantics TF has little to do at this point, so that meeting timeslot is available for some other TF -- EXISTS, ad-hoc, or otherwise
16:56:14 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:56:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:56:29 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:57:10 <pchampin> m2gbot, link issues with transcript
16:57:11 <m2gbot> comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/55#issuecomment-2813552581
16:57:12 <m2gbot> comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182#issuecomment-2813552645
16:57:13 <m2gbot> comment already there: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182#issuecomment-2813552645
17:00:51 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
17:03:16 <niklasl> It's still in semantics? https://w3c.github.io/rdf-semantics/spec/#Reif
17:03:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/45 -> #45
17:04:53 <niklasl> see https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/85
17:04:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/85 -> Issue 85 remove informative section about reification, collections, and containers from Semantics (by pfps) [spec:editorial]
17:06:16 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/47 -> Issue 47 Move text from RDF semantics to RDF schema (by pchampin)
17:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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21:09:59 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
21:09:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ktk, pfps, olaf, AndyS, gtw, TallTed, ora, fsasaki, AZ, niklasl, tl, pchampin, william-vw, gkellogg, enrico, eBremer
21:10:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
21:10:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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21:10:14 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
21:10:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items