13:33:18 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:33:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-i18n-irc 13:33:30 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250417T150000/ 13:33:30 clear agenda 13:33:30 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:33:30 agenda+ Action Items 13:33:33 agenda+ Info Share 13:33:35 agenda+ Review the Review RADAR 13:33:37 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:33:40 agenda+ Google Local Fonts Proposal 13:33:40 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:33:42 agenda+ AOB? 13:33:45 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:33:52 agenda+ WebNN review 13:34:06 agenda+ Encoding: relationship of windows-1252 and Latin1 13:34:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 13:37:40 agenda+ i18n-activity 2002: language detection and und 13:57:48 present+ Addison 14:03:31 present+ Bert, Richard, Fuqiao 14:04:12 scribe+ 14:04:27 regrets+ JcK 14:04:36 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:04:36 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:38 agenda? 14:05:21 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:05:21 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 14:05:34 #166 14:05:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/166 -> Action 166 reply to pointerevents 505 (on aphillips) due 2025-04-17 14:06:11 addison: I think I did that. 14:06:23 close #166 14:06:24 Closed -> issue #166 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/166 14:06:28 #165 14:06:29 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/165 -> Action 165 add a conformance section to suppress the respec warning to specdev (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10 14:06:40 #164 14:06:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/164 -> Action 164 add the google local fonts proposal to future agenda (on aphillips) due 2025-04-10 14:06:55 close #164 14:06:57 Closed -> issue #164 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/164 14:06:59 #162 14:06:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/162 -> Action 162 poll I18N/CSS for new day/time (on aphillips) due 2025-03-25 14:07:41 addison: We got responses from Florian and Elika, but Elika not currently available, so need a new schedule. 14:07:56 #159 14:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/159 -> Action 159 write up proposal for specdev char-string section, adding material that deals with the encoding interface et al (on aphillips) due 2025-02-27 14:08:04 #157 14:08:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20 14:08:14 #136 14:08:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/136 -> Issue 136 follow up on XML errata (by aphillips) [task] 14:08:35 addison: I followed up with plh about XML errata that we want to file. 14:08:49 ... He found that the XML list got closed and asked systems to reopen. 14:09:10 #135 14:09:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 14:09:21 #127 14:09:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 14:09:30 #89 14:09:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 14:09:52 #33 14:09:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:09:52 xfq: There is anew comment on respec thread, but not looked at it in detail yet. 14:10:03 #7 14:10:03 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:10:09 #4 14:10:10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 14:10:25 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:10:25 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:10:39 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/reduce-accept-language/issues/10 14:10:40 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/reduce-accept-language/issues/10 -> Issue 10 I18N objections to reducing accept-language (by aphillips) 14:10:48 addison: There is some activty on ^^ 14:11:00 ... You may want to take a look. 14:11:06 ... What we should reply. 14:11:17 ... Next week we'll have visitors. 14:11:19 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572 14:11:20 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/issues/572 -> Issue 572 How are rule identifiers matched to one another? (by bert-github) [i18n-needs-resolution] 14:11:48 ... Because of ^^ 14:12:04 ... They don't quite understand our issue. 14:12:25 ... They chose to use only lowercase ASCII in their spec, 14:12:37 ... but haven't explained it to their users. 14:12:54 ... They will come to our call next week and we can talk. 14:14:06 Bert: I will read through tthe issue. 14:14:12 atsushi has joined #i18n 14:14:21 q+ 14:14:22 topic: Inforshare 14:14:25 ack next 14:14:27 https://typo.social/@ri 14:14:31 first 4 items 14:14:34 s/Inforshare/Infoshare 14:15:31 r12a: Got Greek case conversion in all browsers now. 14:16:11 ... Malayan orthography notes now with 9000 terms (previously 4500) 14:17:10 xfq: Good dictionary 14:17:20 r12a: Not quite a dictionary. 14:17:54 ... Wiktionary is a disctionary. 14:18:32 ... But you can search through my list for a term to look up in Wiktionary. 14:19:13 s/disctionary/dictionary 14:19:24 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:19:24 agendum 4 -- Review the Review RADAR -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:19:32 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:20:22 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:20:22 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:20:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 14:20:51 s/Malayan/Malayalam/ 14:20:59 agenda? 14:21:26 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:21:26 agendum 8 -- WebNN review -- taken up [from addison] 14:21:39 i18n-activity#1999 14:21:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1999 -> Issue 1999 String metadata and localization for operator labels (by xfq) [pending] [s:webnn] [t:loc_localization] 14:22:18 xfq:I reviewed WebNN and found an issue. 14:22:31 ... Core of the soec is for machine learning. 14:22:44 ... They have labels, which are strings. 14:23:02 q+ 14:23:21 ... I asked if it is a language-independent identifier or can contain natural language strings. 14:23:30 ack next 14:23:34 ... If the latter, it should have metadata. 14:24:06 addison: I expect they will say it is for programmers only and not a language string. 14:24:10 present+ atsushi 14:24:18 s/soec/spec/ 14:24:22 rrsagent, make minutes 14:24:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:24:34 ... It is a way to propegate error messages, 14:24:51 ... We generally think that language metadata is useful here. 14:24:53 q+ similar to this? https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1548 14:24:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1548 -> CLOSED Issue 1548 Label by text possibly with natural language, without metadata attached (by himorin) [pending] [s:webnn] 14:25:24 xfq: They don't clearly say if it is language-agnostic. I asked they make it clearer. 14:25:41 addison: The label might be the name of the operator. 14:26:03 xfq: Yes, or whatever the developer wants. 14:26:05 agenda? 14:26:20 Resolution: file the issue 14:26:27 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:26:27 agendum 6 -- Google Local Fonts Proposal -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:26:39 https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/limiting-local-fonts-access?tab=readme-ov-file 14:27:10 addison: I had some comments on ^^. 14:27:24 > ensure that the same list of fonts is used for all users on a platform: why is this a goal? 14:27:39 ... Their goal says ^^ 14:27:59 addison: That isn't necessarily a goal. It is an outcome. 14:28:03 > This document does not propose solutions for platforms that have varied or customizable font packages, such as Linux, for which it is difficult to build an allowlist of platform fonts due to its wide range of distributions that tailor to varying user preferences 14:28:21 addison: And they have a non-goal ^^ 14:29:20 ... But Linux isn't the only platform that is customizabkle. Windows and MacOS can also be customized, e.g., with language packages. 14:30:35 xfq: We can't add labels on that repo :-( 14:30:51 r12a: We can make a tracker issue in our repo, though. 14:30:58 -- 14:31:00 Recent CSSWG discussions have brought up the idea of prescribing user agents to not expose user-installed fonts on the web as a privacy protecting measure. These measures mirror Safari’s approach of limiting local font availability by restricting to fonts that are bundled with the operating system by default. 14:31:04 -- 14:31:40 r12a: I agree with what you said, especially about ^^ 14:32:06 ... I'm not using Safari at the moment, because font support is so bad. 14:32:26 ... We have explained why system fonts alone is completely inadequate. 14:32:37 addison: Who will file the issue? 14:33:14 xfq: One jlreq member already filed an issue. 14:33:35 s/jlreq/clreq/ 14:34:11 r12a: The explainer refers to MacOS Ventura as the base? That is quite old. 14:34:13 (about at least don't implement this until there is systemic support for generic font families) 14:34:36 action: addison: file issue(s) against limiting-local-font-access 14:34:44 Created -> action #167 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/167 14:35:10 agenda? 14:35:17 r12a: First remark should be that they haven't read the Safari discussion. 14:36:20 ... And they don't seem to acknowledge the issues that system-font-only creates and they talk about the proposed solutions, such as opt-in and local document use. 14:36:36 s/talk/don't talk 14:36:57 zakim, take up agendum 9 14:36:57 agendum 9 -- Encoding: relationship of windows-1252 and Latin1 -- taken up [from addison] 14:37:01 https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/pull/345 14:37:01 https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/pull/345 -> Pull Request 345 Explain the relationship between windows-1252, Latin1, and ASCII (by domenic) [i18n-tracker] [clarification] 14:38:21 addison: Issue says encoding in Windows-1252 includes Latin1. 14:38:35 ... We haven't touched our encoding stuff recently. 14:38:40 ... It is old. 14:40:04 ... AnnevK mentions in the issue that there still problems with the Latin and Windows-1252, in C0 range 14:40:36 ... First 256 characters in Unicode not the same as windows-1252. 14:41:45 xfq: How much impact would this have on authors? 14:42:16 addison: If authors specify latin-1 to smuggle bytes in, they will be surprised. 14:42:32 ... But it shouldn't have impact on web authors. 14:43:44 zakim, take up agendum 10 14:43:44 agendum 10 -- i18n-activity 2002: language detection and und -- taken up [from addison] 14:43:53 i18n-activity#2002 14:43:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2002 -> Issue 2002 Language Detection: Should we allow results that are less than "und" to be included? (by w3cbot) [tracker] [t:lang_detection] [s:translation-api] 14:44:17 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/translation-api/issues/51 14:44:18 https://github.com/webmachinelearning/translation-api/issues/51 -> Issue 51 Language Detection: Should we allow results that are less than "und" to be included? (by nathanmemmott) [i18n-tracker] 14:44:50 addison: If you do detection, you get a vector back with confidence factors. 14:45:19 ... Should UND be allowed in the middle? Or only at the end of the list, even if confidence factor is higher than some others? 14:46:46 ... I think language detectors can retiurn 0 confidence. Depends on how it is implemented. E.g., some Chinese-like punctuation could give a low signal for another languge. 14:47:05 ... There may be better methods, but you can get small values. 14:47:40 ... So if those factors are lower than the factor for UND, should they still be included in the list? 14:50:21 addison: E.g., several language are written in devenagari, but if you only look for Hindi, you may conclude a low confidence factor. 14:51:10 r12a: You cannot detect the language from the script, exceprt maybe for Japanese, where there is only one language that uses the script. 14:51:42 addison: Yes, but script can help. 14:53:48 ... My Hindi example: if you look for Hindi but it isn't, you will probably still get a factor, though a low one. 14:54:34 atsushi: [can't hear] 14:56:04 ... This is not dictionary-based, but machine learning. Could be some sort of non-atural-language detection. 14:56:17 ... Could be some use case. 14:57:20 addison: It may have no immediately practical use, but could be useful to test the language detector. 14:58:27 Bert: I'm not clear what it means to detect "und". 14:59:31 addison: In my language detector I also had a factor to express confidence that it is *not* a given language. E.g., if there are multiple detecotrs each detecting one language. 15:00:48 agenda? 15:00:56 ... If a detector then can't detect a language with sufficient confidence, it returns "und". 15:01:09 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:01:09 agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:01:45 addison: Don't forget next week we'll have WAI people to discuss ACT rules. 15:02:39 rrsagent, make minutes 15:02:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:03:26 addison has joined #i18n 15:03:34 zakim, who is here? 15:03:34 Present: Addison, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao, atsushi 15:03:36 On IRC I see addison, atsushi, RRSAgent, Zakim, r12a, eemeli, gb, Rachael, jyasskin, florian, agendabot, Bert, csarven, plh, xfq, koji, astearns, alastairc, cwilso 15:03:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/17-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:03:54 zakim, bye 15:03:54 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao, atsushi 15:03:54 Zakim has left #i18n 15:27:01 bigbluehat has joined #i18n