12:57:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:57:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/16-matf-irc
12:57:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:57:08 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:57:09 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 16 April 2025
12:57:09 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:57:17 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 16 April 2025
12:57:21 <JJ> chair+
12:57:26 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum)
12:57:31 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast
12:57:35 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
12:57:39 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus
12:58:13 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:59:06 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:00:46 <hdv> present+
13:00:55 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:01:08 <JJ> regrets+ quintinb
13:01:15 <Tanya> present+
13:02:04 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
13:02:46 <JJ> regrets- quintinb
13:02:52 <JJ> present+ quintinb
13:02:55 <JJ> scribe: quintinb
13:03:17 <quintinb> present +
13:03:31 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
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13:04:37 <quintinb> JJ summarising people who have taken up definitions
13:04:54 <Joe_Humbert> Q+
13:05:12 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:05:16 <Carol> present+
13:05:31 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:05:42 <Tim> present+
13:05:48 <quintinb> ack
13:05:50 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:05:57 <Aash> present+
13:06:04 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert do we need to vote on the draft proposals
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13:06:10 <julianmka> present+
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13:07:14 <Detlev> present+
13:07:26 <Karla> present+
13:07:48 <JJ> List of issues that are being drafted or are ready for drafting: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Adrafting
13:07:52 <JJ> q?
13:08:02 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:13:13 <JJ> q?
13:13:14 <Tanya> q+
13:13:17 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:13:42 <pauljadam> placeholder text is text
13:13:53 <Detlev> q+
13:14:13 <JJ> Thx rachaely - to filter issues on having assignees: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20%20has%3Aassignee
13:14:23 <quintinb> Tanya 2 q's 1. How shall we treat placeholder text, which can be treated as decorative - we reject placeholder text that doesn't meet contrast?
13:14:49 <pauljadam> yep designers don't like labels, which makes UIs more confusing
13:15:14 <quintinb> Tanya 2. When we are talking about color contrast, are we talking about text with no accessibility features on? We say that user settings should be respected
13:16:00 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:16:09 <quintinb> q+ what if the platform does adaptive scaling - can we really fail dev's for not getting 200%?
13:17:41 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:17:48 <Jamie> present+
13:17:49 <JJ> q+ quintinb
13:17:51 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:18:10 <quintinb> what if the platform does adaptive scaling - can we really fail dev's for not getting 200%? Should this be a note?
13:18:21 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:19:06 <rachaely> q+ what about the high contrast OS setting?
13:19:09 <quintinb> JJ this isn't about text resizing
13:19:25 <quintinb> q+ rachaely
13:20:06 <JJ> ack rachaely
13:20:20 <quintinb> rachaely do high contrast settings apply here?
13:20:32 <pauljadam> +q
13:20:41 <Detlev> q+
13:21:01 <julianmka> System settings as sufficient techniques? https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/67
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13:21:26 <JJ> q?
13:21:28 <quintinb> @JJ this does seem to be a separate issue
13:21:30 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:22:19 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert As per dynamic scaling, is there a way that testers can determine why something is not scaling? Like which unit is being used
13:22:38 <JJ> q?
13:22:49 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:24:38 <quintinb> Detlev to Tanya - We normally ignore placeholder contrast when the placeholder is redundant because there is a label. But if there is important information in the placeholer, then it needs to meet contrast. There is also a need for graphics contrast that can affect this scenario
13:25:55 <JJ> q?
13:25:57 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:27:22 <quintinb> pauljadam for placeholder, wcag does not specify "placeholder" - text is text. For contrast, some web sites allow users to increase contrast, but I think default contrast should meet WCAG.
13:29:10 <quintinb> JJ leaving the app can also be a burden on folks
13:29:36 <quintinb> pauljadam you could rely on reduce motion, but without a pause button people will think you are inaccessible
13:29:41 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
13:29:56 <JJ> q?
13:29:56 <quintinb> respecting system settings should be below minimum
13:30:46 <quintinb> That highlight contrast...
13:31:04 <pauljadam> I forgot to say that the Xcode Accessibility Inspector can test for resizable text
13:31:27 <JJ> ACTION: Define how to calculcate text size in points for Mobile Applications
13:31:34 <quintinb> pauljadam isn't that only certain versions, like 17+?
13:31:39 <pauljadam> don't think so
13:31:43 <quintinb> ah ty
13:31:49 <JJ> ACTION: Determine whether high contrast mode is an acceptable way to pass 1.4.3
13:32:02 <pauljadam> You can't inspect the text size only you can run the Audit function
13:32:08 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:32:08 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.4.11 Non-text Contrast -- taken up [from JJ]
13:34:05 <quintinb> q+
13:34:30 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/49
13:34:56 <pauljadam> iOS Toggles have insufficient contrast ratio but their appearance is determined by the user agent and not modified by the author. You can add a custom .toggleStyle to achieve 3:1 contrast ratio but that is only required when the author modifies the design of the toggle.
13:35:49 <quintinb> I wonder how non-disabled folks would react if not-enabled components where just black text on blackgrounds...
13:36:14 <JJ> q?
13:36:18 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:36:20 <quintinb> is Flutter and React native a user agent or an author?
13:36:35 <pauljadam> q+
13:36:45 <JJ> User agent definition: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63
13:37:37 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:38:12 <JJ> pauljadam
13:38:15 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:39:13 <quintinb> pauljadam the ios toggle has insufficient contrast ratio - appearence is determined by user agent, but can be configured. If cross platform do their own thing, then they're on the hook for sufficient contrast
13:39:54 <quintinb> I wonder what the point of a disabled component is if it doesn't have to meet contrast requirements
13:40:09 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:40:31 <JJ> For frameworks like Flutter or React Native, could look purely at the colors, and not at technical implementation for 1.4.11
13:40:36 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert user agent: WCAG2ICT: any software that retrieves and represents documents for users
13:40:39 <quintinb> Not pages?
13:40:42 <quintinb> or views?
13:40:44 <Joe_Humbert> yup
13:40:49 <pauljadam> page is a document :)
13:40:50 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#user-agent
13:40:59 <quintinb> Haha sorry just stirring
13:41:33 <JJ> q?
13:41:49 <Joe_Humbert> Document is defined as well https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#document
13:42:07 <pauljadam> +q
13:42:26 <JJ> ack pauljadam
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13:42:41 <Detlev> present+
13:43:29 <quintinb> pauljadam another weird thing about toggles: off state is not sufficient, but on state does - is this a way to weasel out of this? because one state is passable?
13:43:35 <Detlev> I created an issue for redundant placeholder contrast requirement: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/4343
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13:44:21 <JJ> q?
13:44:26 <quintinb> If there are some components that "don't matter" - what's the point of requiring anything? Maybe that's me just being synical
13:44:46 <Tanya> q+
13:44:51 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:45:39 <pauljadam> I'm still surprised there is no definition of "inactive"
13:46:14 <quintinb> Tanya I think if you look at the intent of the SC is to make elements more detectable for people. I would not mind adding a note that all elements should comply with minimum contrast
13:47:05 <quintinb> By allowing low contrast for inactive elements, we're telling those who can't see it "you wouldn't get it, your understanding / perception doesn't matter"
13:47:19 <rachaely> does the rounding note also apply for text contrast or just non-text?
13:47:23 <pauljadam> on iOS when you enable increase contrast setting the toggle then has better contrast too. so we may not want to put a burden on developers that they have to fix all of apple's bad contrast choices
13:50:13 <quintinb> JJ maybe add a note to modify the appearance for accessibility, that authors should do it
13:50:16 <pauljadam> Or apple could fix their default contrast then no developers would have to worry about it 🤷‍♂️
13:50:38 <pauljadam> +q
13:50:54 <JJ> ACTION: Determine potential note to cover best-practices for user agent determined appearance and inactive components
13:50:56 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:51:24 <quintinb> pauljadam maybe we should ask developers to file bug reports
13:51:27 <JJ> ACTION: Note could also say something about "if you have the ability to change the appearace to reach minimum contrast, then do it"
13:51:28 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
13:51:39 <quintinb> "Email your MP"
13:51:51 <quintinb> I may sound like a lazy engineer, but I'm not going to lie, I think the OS should do it
13:52:22 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:52:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.10 Reflow -- taken up [from JJ]
13:54:28 <pauljadam> WCAG's Reflow success criterion requires no horizontal scrolling for vertically scrolling content at a width of 320 pixels or less.
13:54:28 <pauljadam> You can make you iPhone width 320 by turning on Larger Text Display Zoom setting.
13:55:30 <pauljadam> in my a11y Techniques app I have a Horizontal Scroll Views technique that detects your screen width and does not show horizontal scrolling if you are at 320 width
13:55:44 <Detlev> q+
13:56:12 <JJ> q?
13:56:21 <JJ> ack Detlev
13:56:38 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/4
13:56:55 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/25#issuecomment-2791793511
13:57:43 <quintinb> @Detlev there is an interesting link to the orientation SC. Do we need to make sure that when you support landscape that you require all content being available?
13:57:54 <pauljadam> +q
13:57:59 <quintinb> It is considered best practice in Android, @Detlev \
13:58:21 <quintinb> I remember the Jetpack compose docs saying all info should be available, regardless of view rendering
13:58:29 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:58:33 <JJ> zakim, close the queue
13:58:33 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
13:59:17 <quintinb> pauljadam I have interpreted reflow for native for iPhone for larger text display setting. You can do the same thing for native apps
13:59:29 <quintinb> Thanks!
14:01:36 <JJ> Question: how to check screen size on Android/iOS, is it possible without using a (3rd party) website or app?
14:01:50 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:01:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, hdv, Tanya, quintinb, Carol, Tim, Aash, julianmka, Detlev, Karla, Jamie
14:01:54 <JJ> present+ rachaely
14:02:05 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/16-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:02:15 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
14:02:44 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/16-matf-minutes.html JJ