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13:56:49 <TallTed> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG
13:57:01 <TallTed> present+
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13:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html TallTed
13:59:06 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/07-lws-minutes.html
13:59:06 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/21-lws-minutes.html
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13:59:22 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20250414T100000/
13:59:23 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:59:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions & announcements
13:59:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:59:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Continued discussion on -> portability: data identifiers & locators https://hackmd.io/udygiH3STieqHniB38h1ig
13:59:24 <agendabot> agenda+ Use cases updates
13:59:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html TallTed
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14:00:31 <acoburn> present+
14:00:40 <hadrian> present+
14:00:50 <gibsonf1> present+
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14:01:20 <pchampin> present+
14:01:31 <ericP> present+
14:02:24 <eBremer> present+
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14:02:49 <balessan> present+
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14:03:11 <TallTed> scribe: balessan
14:03:24 <laurens> chair: laurens
14:03:29 <ericP> chair: laurens
14:03:47 <balessan> laurens: agenda for today - 3 topic
14:04:04 <acoburn> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:04:25 <balessan> laurens: introduction and announcements
14:04:46 <balessan> laurens: next monday is easter monday, so bank holiday so do we push the meeting or cancel it ?
14:04:58 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
14:04:59 <balessan> laurens: proposal is cancellation
14:05:05 <gibsonf1> +1
14:05:13 <TallTed> ±0
14:05:14 <balessan> +1
14:05:17 <hadrian> +0
14:05:20 <pchampin> +1
14:05:21 <jeswr> +0
14:05:26 <jeswr> present+
14:05:26 <acoburn> +0
14:05:27 <bendm> bendm has joined #lws
14:05:30 <csarven> sqrt(-1)
14:05:42 <balessan> laurens: ok on that proposal to cancel next monday's meeting
14:05:42 <bendm> present+
14:05:42 <jeswr> q+
14:05:49 <laurens> q?
14:05:55 <AZ> AZ has joined #lws
14:05:59 <AZ> present+
14:06:17 <hadrian> q+
14:06:30 <jeswr> https://theodi.org/news-and-events/news/solid-advisory-committee/
14:06:38 <acoburn> q+ to note a scribe convention
14:06:44 <balessan> jesse: my announcement is nomination/application are open for ODI advisory committee
14:06:53 <acoburn> ack next
14:06:56 <balessan> jesse: A  number of roles here, all related to solid
14:07:22 <balessan> jesse: Implementer, researcher, commercial and entities using solid, sustainability and inclusion.
14:07:25 <bendm> q+
14:07:30 <balessan> jesse: looking for applicants
14:07:35 <laurens> q?
14:07:37 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask - what is official ODI app deadline?
14:07:44 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:07:58 <balessan> hadrian: One comment, does that apply to LWS as much as Solid?
14:08:27 <balessan> jesse: Obviously yes as ODI has an official representation in LWS
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14:09:22 <csarven> pchampin: train wifi + zoom is not looking good for me. is there a low bandwidth alternative that I can join with? or only phone call or something.
14:09:31 <balessan> hadrian: There were conversation about wallets, self sovereign identifiers and
14:09:33 <laurens> q?
14:09:38 <laurens> ack acoburn
14:09:38 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to note a scribe convention
14:09:49 <pchampin> https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
14:10:06 <laurens> ack bendm
14:10:32 <balessan> ben: what is expected from those volunteers exactly ? what kind of outputs ?
14:10:34 <csarven> pchampin: Okie, I'm in. Will see how this holds up
14:11:30 <balessan> jesse: 8 Meetings per year and, 5 cumulative days of work, travel can be subsidized. outputs: Drive the strategic orientation that ODI takes.
14:12:01 <laurens> q?
14:12:06 <balessan> jesse: looking for some representatives that are not especially from the existing solid communities
14:12:07 <laurens> ack gibsonf
14:12:07 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask - what is official ODI app deadline?
14:12:29 <balessan> gibsonf1: the deadline?
14:13:03 <laurens> q?
14:13:11 <balessan> jesse: Registration ends right after the solid symposium? (exact date?). Light application ok. Just some lines and attaching your resume does it.
14:13:33 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
14:13:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions & announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:34 <jeswr> s/(exact date?)/ April 30th
14:13:37 <balessan> laurens: next action item: do we have open action item?
14:13:43 <TallTed> Zakim, close agendum 1
14:13:43 <Zakim> agendum 1, Introductions & announcements, closed
14:13:44 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:13:44 <Zakim> 2. Action Items [from agendabot]
14:13:48 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
14:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:14:16 <ericP> q+ to say that the reason i presented those https://hackmd.io/udygiH3STieqHniB38h1ig#/ last week was to get us all on the same page wrt the differential cosrts between identifiers and locators.
14:14:43 <laurens> q?
14:14:45 <laurens> ack ericP
14:14:45 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that the reason i presented those https://hackmd.io/udygiH3STieqHniB38h1ig#/ last week was to get us all on the same page wrt the differential cosrts
14:14:48 <Zakim> ... between identifiers and locators.
14:14:53 <balessan> laurens: Next item: portability of identifiers
14:15:21 <balessan> ericP: wanted to get us all on the same page on this identifiers and locators question
14:16:07 <hadrian> q+
14:16:11 <balessan> ericP: Why we might want to think about the URN vs URLs ?
14:16:16 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:16:55 <laurens> q+
14:17:03 <balessan> hadrian: if we build system with identifiers which reverts to identity, registry are not the only way to dereference identifiers to identity
14:17:45 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask - would it be possible in splitting identifier/locators to still use QR codes of an identifier to jump to a resource?  How would that work?
14:17:58 <acoburn> ack laurens
14:18:06 <balessan> laurens: one of the challenges I see to have identifiers for resources which are linked to their locators is that when you decouple those, your surface of specification becomes more larger
14:18:08 <laurens> q?
14:18:11 <laurens> ack gibsonf
14:18:11 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask - would it be possible in splitting identifier/locators to still use QR codes of an identifier to jump to a resource?  How would that work?
14:18:34 <balessan> gibsonf: how would that work with that locator vs identifier split ?
14:18:35 <hadrian> q+
14:18:37 <kaefer3000> present+
14:19:36 <laurens> q?
14:19:39 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:19:54 <balessan> dmitri: you have to divide the use-case between the general camera. The qr code check by an app can have some logic for instance. (missed the rest...)
14:20:13 <laurens> q?
14:20:19 <ericP> q+ to say that the downside of gibsonf1's notion of a URL is that it might need to be portable
14:20:24 <laurens> ack ericP
14:20:24 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that the downside of gibsonf1's notion of a URL is that it might need to be portable
14:21:08 <pchampin> I would suggest that an identifier with broadly deployed resolution mechanism is undistinguishable from a locator
14:21:12 <balessan> ericP: When you point QR Read to point to a URI, now you are a slave to the domain name which is supposed to serve the identifier.
14:21:27 <hadrian> q+
14:21:58 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:22:03 <balessan> ericP: If we go the way to use URLs as resource locator, we have a point of vulnerability on the UI which resolves that
14:22:44 <laurens> q?
14:22:51 <balessan> hadrian: I don't think we should move to another way to identify resource. Did is another thing for identities. For accessing resources, let's continue to use HTTP.
14:22:52 <ericP> q+ to describe cost of HTTP
14:22:54 <laurens> q+
14:23:03 <balessan> hadrian: any other views ?
14:23:04 <laurens> ack ericP
14:23:04 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to describe cost of HTTP
14:23:44 <kaefer3000> q+
14:23:48 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:23:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:23:55 <balessan> ericP: In Solid land I have no problem registering domain names, move them and so on, if you scale that up to expected 9billions people, that might not be doable
14:24:15 <laurens> ack laurens
14:24:16 <balessan> ericP: Using something other than DNS for resource and identity locators ?
14:24:43 <gibsonf1> q+ to say: In our case, QR codes point to the app URL with the resource in the query string - so app comes first
14:24:44 <balessan> laurens: what about identities of agents, use-case for identity of resources ?
14:25:05 <balessan> laurens: Scaling issue/portability issue. What is the killer use -case for decoupling those ?
14:25:13 <hadrian> q+
14:25:20 <balessan> laurens: It is unclear to me now. I just see the issues
14:25:39 <laurens> q?
14:25:44 <laurens> ack kaefer
14:26:47 <balessan> tobias: Hadrian said for retrieving, if we have DID we should keep HTTPs for dereferencing identifiers. I did not understand that completely. ericP stated the issue of portability.
14:27:17 <balessan> tobias: everybody is having his identity in email address and is tied to that from a long time. How much does that really hurt ?
14:27:35 <laurens> q?
14:27:39 <laurens> ack gibsonf
14:27:39 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to say: In our case, QR codes point to the app URL with the resource in the query string - so app comes first
14:27:41 <balessan> tobias: Everything registering DNS should obviously not be what people needs to do but they did it.
14:28:10 <laurens> q?
14:28:13 <balessan> gibsonf1: for the qr code you actually have to go the app to retrieve and resolve the identifier from the qr code
14:28:13 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:28:23 <pchampin> q+ dmitri
14:29:30 <balessan> hadrian: Laurens, about the killer app, it is data portability and provenance. This coupling is hindering adoption
14:29:36 <dmitriz> dmitriz has joined #lws
14:29:53 <dmitriz> q+
14:29:57 <dmitriz> q-
14:30:00 <balessan> hadrian: for this to work it will required some kind of infrastructure. We do not talk about that but it should be stated.
14:30:42 <balessan> hadrian: If you lose your email address you lose access to everything but you count on your email provider to manage that
14:31:12 <balessan> hadrian: What happens at that scale when everybody relies on the DNS? And you change that.
14:31:28 <balessan> laurens: DO you need to make every identifiers portable?
14:31:45 <balessan> laurens: Or do we need to make some of them portable
14:32:00 <laurens> q?
14:32:09 <balessan> hadrian: You need at least one identifier which is sovereign and that has been given to you.
14:32:17 <laurens> ack dmitri
14:32:52 <balessan> dmitriz: I think we see the value of completely portable identifiers and the current difficulties
14:33:03 <balessan> dmitriz: your current goal is to make the first specification of the LWS
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14:33:35 <balessan> dmitriz: we could say that we need https identifiers
14:33:59 <balessan> dmitriz: We probably should not require http urls
14:34:20 <laurens> q?
14:34:21 <jeswr> +1
14:34:24 <pchampin> +1
14:34:25 <bendm> +1
14:34:28 <laurens> +1
14:34:28 <acoburn> +1
14:34:40 <laurens> q?
14:34:43 <csarven> -1
14:34:44 <gibsonf1> +1
14:34:51 <kaefer3000> -1
14:34:52 <ericP> q+ to noodle on bootstrap process
14:34:58 <laurens> ack ericP
14:34:58 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to noodle on bootstrap process
14:35:19 <balessan> ericP: +1 for dmitriz proposal
14:35:58 <dmitriz> I'd be of course curious to hear from kaefer3000 and csarven abut those -1s
14:36:00 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask about the status of Webid's as used in Solid in this context  (as in the semantic subject of the agent)
14:36:17 <balessan> ...: if we say must support https. what it means writing the spec with "may". If we rewrite the spec in one year, what will be the impact on existing systems?
14:36:27 <laurens> q?
14:36:31 <hadrian> q+
14:36:34 <balessan> ericP: we need to noodle on that
14:36:37 <laurens> ack gibsonf
14:36:37 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask about the status of Webid's as used in Solid in this context  (as in the semantic subject of the agent)
14:36:59 <csarven> q+ to mention HTTP working within the OWP and 99%+ coverage on the web
14:37:12 <laurens> ack hadrian
14:37:23 <acoburn> q+ to respond to Fred
14:37:54 <balessan> hadrian: big +1 to dmitriz, the thing we can do is that there are necessary but we cannot be resolved today
14:38:28 <balessan> gibsonf1: question about the webid, using the webid as the resource location about the agent, how would the decoupling cope with this idea of semantic webid ?
14:39:10 <balessan> hadrian: the idea behing webid there was a one-to-one equivalence between webids and did:web emitted for the same agent.
14:40:02 <TallTed> s/behing/behind/
14:40:11 <balessan> hadrian: you only care about the webid document, you need to get it in some way. You need an id which uniquely represent the document and being able to dereference it
14:40:56 <balessan> hadrian: really good conversation to have in more details in issues
14:40:57 <laurens> q?
14:41:01 <laurens> ack csarven
14:41:01 <Zakim> csarven, you wanted to mention HTTP working within the OWP and 99%+ coverage on the web
14:41:48 <hadrian> looks like nothing I said today was captured in the minutes
14:42:16 <dmitriz> @csarven -- I think my comment (and the +1s) were about not RESTRICTING it to HTTPs only IDs
14:42:16 <gb> https://github.com/csarven -> @csarven
14:42:31 <dmitriz> obviously HTTPS IDs are fine. we just want to add an upgrade path
14:43:06 <balessan> yeah sorry I have issues following here
14:43:27 <balessan> If somebody is able to decode
14:44:25 <balessan> csarven: is somebody here trying to build applications which are scaling to the whole world?
14:44:53 <laurens> q?
14:44:58 <laurens> ack acoburn
14:44:58 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to respond to Fred
14:45:19 <laurens> q+
14:45:47 <balessan> acoburn: We are talking about not restricting identifiers to HTTP URIs
14:45:55 <hadrian> as identifiers today we don't use http :), we use strings and email addresses
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14:46:57 <balessan> acoburn: Two things you need: one mechanism to validate a given identifiers, webid is just one example. As a locator, an app can resolve that ID and fetch additional information, as long as there is a mechanism to get additional information, you are fine
14:47:20 <csarven> acoburn dmitriz balessan , may I ask you to update minutes in what is being suggested regarding HTTP identifiers? What I've interpreted from the part audio and the draft minutes above on IRC are a bit different than what acoburn just said.
14:47:30 <balessan> acoburn: right now WebId is a community draft. It does not have the level of maturity as DID of HTTP for instance.
14:48:09 <laurens> q?
14:48:14 <dmitriz> s/if we say must support https/if we say must support ONLY https/
14:48:23 <gibsonf1> Thanks Aaron
14:48:31 <laurens> ack laurens
14:49:40 <laurens> q?
14:49:43 <balessan> laurens: Want to second that we should focus on the use-cases. Portability, provenance are areas where we need to ensure that decoupling.
14:49:55 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:49:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html acoburn
14:50:20 <laurens> q?
14:50:34 <dmitriz> yeah, so to restate my comment for IRC:  This is a great discussion. I think we all agree on both sides of the discussion -- that cross-domain portable IDs (for agents and resources) would be really useful, but have some challenges at the current moment, so we can't REQUIRE them.
14:50:39 <csarven> s/is somebody/I suggest to consider alignment with the web platform for starters, which is HTTP - proven to work before dismissing it. Is somebody
14:51:06 <balessan> @laurens: final agenda item. Update on the actions items from last week.
14:51:06 <gb> https://github.com/laurens -> @laurens
14:51:22 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask about adding UC - is that via the issues?
14:51:56 <laurens> https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Aneeds-discussion
14:51:57 <balessan> hadrian: no update this week on that side. The target was the end of the month. Holiday next week is to be considered.
14:52:19 <dmitriz> so, really, this is a discussion about MAY vs SHOULD vs MUST, in the spec. My proposal is: we _don't_ want to say "all identifiers MUST be HTTPS" (like the current OpenID Federation spec does). That's too restrictive. Similarly, we don't want to say "all identifiers MUST be cross-domain portable". So instead, I propose we say something like "IDs can be either https-based or using a cross-domain portable identifier spec", and have a Portability
14:52:19 <dmitriz>  Considerations section in the spec
14:52:21 <balessan> hadrian: let's continue the discussions in the issues themselves, we can go in more details.
14:52:48 <laurens> q?
14:52:51 <laurens> ack gibsonf
14:52:51 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask about adding UC - is that via the issues?
14:53:10 <balessan> gibsonf1: To add a new use-case, should we just create a new issue?
14:53:20 <balessan> laurens: yes definitely
14:53:36 <laurens> q?
14:53:49 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:53:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html pchampin
14:55:08 <csarven> q+ best to leave what terminology to use or how to organise the spec when the requirements are clear and looked as a whole
14:55:44 <csarven> Meh, I have a bandwidth problem
14:55:49 <csarven> q- best
14:55:50 <csarven> q+
14:56:11 <dmitriz> @csarven - yeah, probably best to type out your comment here
14:56:12 <gb> https://github.com/csarven -> @csarven
14:56:24 <csarven> q-
14:56:27 <dmitriz> or mailing list
14:56:33 <csarven> I give up re Zoom
14:57:19 <csarven> No need to call a requirement level at this point on what a particular requirement should be in isolation. I think that's premature. I don't disagree with the idea to not limit the URI scheme to HTTP. That's fine, but we're still only talking about UC requirements!
14:57:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html TallTed
14:57:58 <pchampin> i|laurens: agenda for today - 3 topic|topic: Introductions & announcements
14:58:09 <csarven> And never need to say "all x should use y". instead say "to do x, use y"
14:58:43 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:58:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html pchampin
14:59:15 <pchampin> s|agendum 1 -- Introductions & announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]|
14:59:17 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html pchampin
14:59:56 <pchampin> s|agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]|Topic: Portability and identifiers
14:59:58 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html pchampin
15:00:58 <pchampin> i|final agenda item. Update on the actions|Topic: Action items
15:00:59 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/14-lws-minutes.html pchampin
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