13:01:06 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 13:01:11 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-irc 13:01:14 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 2 13:01:36 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster 13:03:13 dape has joined #wot-td 13:04:28 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#April_9-10%2C_2025 13:04:35 present+ Daniel_Peintner 13:04:51 rrsagent, make log public 13:05:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:05:08 q+ 13:05:17 q- 13:05:35 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 13:05:41 chair: Ege, Koster 13:05:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:06:00 Mizushima has joined #wot-td 13:08:44 mjk has joined #wot-td 13:10:46 present+ Jan_Romann 13:10:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:10:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:11:02 topic: Logistics 13:11:15 ek: wondering if this slot on Thursday is OK for people 13:11:26 q+ 13:11:40 janro has joined #wot-td 13:11:48 scribenick: JKRhb 13:11:54 scribenick: janro 13:11:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:11:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:12:16 i|wondering|scribenick: kaz| 13:12:35 (some discussion about people's availability) 13:12:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:13:33 ek: Will send an email to ask other people's availability as well 13:13:55 topic: Initial Connection Restructuring 13:14:06 ek: Simple PR, although the diff is quite big 13:14:15 ... just turned the bullet list into a table 13:14:22 ... will show you what it looks like 13:14:32 ... (shows the rendered Markdown document) 13:15:04 i|Simple|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2090 TD PR 2090 - Initial Connection Restructuring| 13:15:05 ... we now have a similar table structure as it is present in the TD spec 13:15:28 s/topic: Initial/subtopic: Initial/ 13:15:40 i|topic: Initial C|topic: TD| 13:15:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:15:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:15:50 ... then we have what each container contains, the rest I didn't change 13:15:56 ... didn't want to make a big PR 13:16:16 ... also wanted to ask whether we want to move the state machines and the requirements somewhere else 13:16:21 q+ 13:16:34 ... currently it is a bit difficult to read 13:16:54 ... the requirements can be visible in the diagrams 13:17:21 kaz: As an initial starting point, we can make this description a separate group note and the think about how to restructure later 13:17:27 ek: Why a group note? 13:17:28 cris has joined #wot-td 13:17:52 kaz: If we are unsure how to integrate the content into the main TD spec, we could have a separate document 13:18:01 ek: The main blocker is the toolchain 13:18:17 ... could have it as a separate document, but I am open to opinions 13:18:26 kaz: Waiting for the toolchain is also fine 13:18:49 ... just started to wonder about the possibility of a group note 13:19:02 ... would make it possible to also get comments from the public 13:19:13 ek: A readme is not enough? 13:19:43 kaz: Might be even better to have it as a group note for that purpose for better visibility, but we can also wait 13:20:04 ek: Then maybe as a question to the group: Do you prefer a classic group note or is markdown okay for you? 13:20:11 q- 13:20:15 +1 ok for markdown (sorry I lost most of the discussion ) 13:20:22 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 13:20:47 ek: Maybe just from my side: As soon as we put things into a group note, people think it is a standard 13:20:50 q+ 13:20:54 qq+ 13:21:04 ... so I would prefer to make it obvious that it is not a standard 13:21:17 q- 13:21:38 kaz: The process document is clear about that, but people do not understand that, that is your point, right? 13:21:46 ek: Yeah, similar applies to CG notes 13:21:57 dp: Agree, it is also less overhead 13:22:14 ... the only issue with Markdown I see is that linking is not working as well 13:22:16 ack dape 13:22:22 ... but other than that Markdown is fine 13:22:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:22:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:22:44 ek: Okay, if there are no other opinions then I would keep it in Markdown format 13:23:05 ... any opinions about moving the diagrams within the document? 13:23:19 ... there were also some comments by Luca 13:24:08 ... (adds a comment to the PR summarizing that the reordering is fine for the group as well as sticking to the Markdown format for now) 13:24:24 ... will apply remaining changes and merge asynchronously 13:24:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:24:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html janro 13:25:07 subtopic: Container Parsing 13:25:23 ek: The next step would be to do the container algorithm 13:25:54 ... which could be based on the merge-patch algorithm or the JSON-LD algorithms 13:26:13 q+ 13:26:25 ... as the only spec with algorithms is the Scripting API at the moment, I wanted to ask how we want to proceed here, should we use WebIDL? 13:26:55 ca: In the Scripting API task force, we are usually starting with an issue, then write up the algorithm as text 13:27:06 ... could start with a PR 13:27:45 ... however, the Scripting API algorithms are usually relatively simple, this might be more complex, so maybe we could try to split up the problem into smaller chunks 13:27:58 ... also need to think about data types 13:28:04 q+ 13:28:09 ek: There is already a PR 13:28:22 ... (shows a rendered Markdown table) 13:28:27 ... this is what you mean? 13:28:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:28:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:28:52 ca: Yeah, we are going to stick to Markdown, right? 13:29:20 ... looks good already, we can then start working on the other aspects 13:29:58 i|The next step would|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2093 TD Issue 2093 - Initial Connection Container Parsing| 13:30:06 ack dape 13:30:11 RRSAgent: dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting 13:30:11 I'm logging. I don't understand 'dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting', janro. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:30:53 dp: An example for what we do is the JSON-LD expansion, which looks very complex, we usually stop earlier and do not go as deep with the nesting 13:31:22 ek: (gives an example for an algorithm) 13:31:30 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/proposals/initial-connection/README.md initial-connection/README.md 13:31:32 ... difficult to explain, but I think you got it 13:31:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:31:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:31:53 ca: I think we might be able to build upon already existing assign algorithms 13:32:14 ... if we look carefully enough, I hope there should already be pre-existing one 13:32:24 dp: We should also try to get implementation experience 13:32:31 i|difficult|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/proposals/initial-connection/README.md#td-examples Specifically, the TD Examples from the README.md| 13:32:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:32:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:32:44 ek: Good point, already tried starting a simple script 13:34:02 ... maybe we can leave the implementation to the invidual people, like Eclipse Thingweb, as versioning might be an issue here 13:34:22 ... also annoying to deal with the software distribution aspects 13:34:50 ca: Only exception in that regard are the TypeScript definitions by the Scripting API 13:34:52 q? 13:35:18 ack cris 13:35:32 ek: Could be an issue if the spec gets published but the software lives on independently and gets up updated 13:35:40 s/up // 13:35:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:35:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html janro 13:36:10 ek: Will do some cleanup of the document and then next week we can have a first look at the algorithm 13:36:20 ... will have a call on next Thursday 13:36:21 q+ 13:36:48 q- 13:36:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:36:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:36:59 kaz: I just remember that we got a response from the Privacy Group regarding the ID issue, so maybe you could mention that briefly 13:37:28 s/I just remember/I've just remembered/ 13:38:01 i|I just|subtopic: Reconsider "id" being optional 13:38:12 ek: (shows the response from the Privacy Group) 13:38:42 ii|shows|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2054 TD Issue 2054 - Reconsider id being optional| 13:39:04 ... by the way, kaz, is there a way to link to this? 13:39:25 kaz: You can forward it to the wot-cg-??? mailinglist 13:40:04 ... (summarizes the response and his own latest message) 13:40:20 ... there are some questions on the generation and the format of the ID 13:40:34 s/forward it to the wot-cg-???/at least forward it to member-wot-wg@w3.org/ 13:40:36 ... so if it is going to be a MAC address, then the generation will be well-defined 13:40:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:40:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:41:03 s/ii|show/i|show/ 13:41:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:41:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:41:11 ... there needs to be a definition of a "session", that is whether it is going to be connected to multiple networks or not 13:41:43 ... also need assertive language, as there is no compliance check of implementations 13:41:46 i|that we got|subtopic: Reconsider "id" being optional 13:41:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:41:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:42:09 ... need general guidelines and avoid "engraved" identifiers 13:42:28 ... that was the discussion we had this week, only wrote back on Tuesday 13:42:36 q+ 13:42:44 ... also wrote her that she is invited to join one of our calls 13:43:02 q+ 13:43:20 ca: I think you covered most of our questions, and you are right that there are still a number of moving parts, in order to make sure that we do not create security or privacy loopholes 13:43:47 kaz: Just wanted to repeat that we need to start with a high-level discussion with them again 13:44:16 ... for example, just using id for identifying a specific session and ask for advice 13:44:29 q- 13:44:33 ack c 13:44:34 ... currently, we do not have any particular algorithm etc., so let's just start with a chat with them 13:44:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:44:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:44:44 ek: Any other comments? 13:45:20 jr: Looks promising, thank you for pushing this forward 13:45:35 topic: Next Work Item Proposals 13:46:20 ek: Initial connection seems to make a lot of progress, should now discuss which topic is going to be the next one we want to focus on 13:46:35 ... we had this document with a lot of topics we want to focus on 13:46:43 ... I wanted to propose the data mapping topic 13:46:48 s/topic: Ne/subtopic: Ne/ 13:46:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:46:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:47:13 ... the other alternative would be focussing on use cases submitted by parties such as Use Case TF, TD TF or liaisons 13:47:24 ... could also be from other sources 13:47:31 i|the other|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/planning/work-items/usability-and-design.md#data-schema-mapping Data mapping| 13:47:37 ... in the end, we need to people who want to work on a particular topic 13:47:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:47:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:47:53 ... if there is no one to work on something, it is not going to happen 13:48:03 ... want to get input from as many people as possible 13:48:11 q+ 13:48:14 q+ 13:48:43 ca: The first thing that comes to my mind is of course the whole discussion regarding manageable actions 13:48:55 ... seems to me even more important than Data Mapping 13:50:17 ... everything is connected, though, also relevant to pagination in the case of TDDs, but also action calls that run asynchronously etc. 13:50:44 kaz: I think both of these aspects can be handled as part of the use case discussion 13:50:58 ... so maybe we can perform a prioritization based on that 13:51:25 ... Michael McCool was also thinking about a process of use case description generation 13:52:05 ek: There is always going to be a use case/user story description, in order not to pull something out of thin air 13:52:24 ... at the moment, enough people have already articulated the need 13:52:45 ... so we just need to formulate the descriptions based on these considerations 13:53:20 kaz: Maybe we can generate a lightweight description from the work items 13:53:25 q? 13:53:27 ack c 13:53:28 ack k 13:53:50 s/from the work items/from some of the work items which we've been working on for a while/ 13:54:12 ek: The others: What do you see as important aspects we should work on? 13:55:17 mjk: I basically agree, these are the most important ones, as they also point to pretty large gaps at the moment 13:55:52 dp: I think most of us agree that these are the most important topics to work one 13:55:57 mz: Also agree 13:57:12 +1 for getting input 13:57:21 ek: There has been previous work when it comes to managable affordances in the web agents group, so from there we can also get input 13:57:49 ... also presentations that were held in the WoT context 13:58:36 ... there have also be considerations to model managable actions via events 13:59:13 ek: I am not sure whether we can work on both work items at the same time, so we might need to pick one or prioritize one over the other 13:59:13 q+ 13:59:14 zkis has joined #wot-td 13:59:17 ... what do people think? 13:59:44 ca: If you ask me, if we deal with managable actions we might deal with data mapping anyway 14:00:00 ... so we might want to start with data mapping, but the dependency might be bidirectional 14:00:01 q+ 14:00:06 ack c 14:00:20 zkis_ has joined #wot-td 14:00:21 ek: So maybe we want to work on both at the same time to a certain degree to find that out 14:00:35 dp: Ideally, we might want to have people work on both topics at the same time 14:00:46 ... for that reason 14:00:58 ek: Yeah, that would be the best case 14:01:06 ack dape 14:01:11 mjk: We should do use case review on both, probably 14:01:21 ek: Alright, then we should start working that next week 14:01:40 ... and start separate markdown files like in the case with the initial connection 14:01:50 [adjourned] 14:02:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:12:06 zkis has joined #wot-td 14:58:56 janro has joined #wot-td 15:15:52 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 15:34:24 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 16:06:11 Zakim has left #wot-td 17:56:55 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 18:30:58 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 18:31:23 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 18:45:36 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 19:46:17 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 20:03:36 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 20:48:58 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 21:00:22 janro has joined #wot-td 21:07:47 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 21:25:01 janro_ has joined #wot-td 21:25:30 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 21:43:28 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 21:48:34 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:06:40 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:23:05 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:38:39 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:49:40 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:57:03 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:03:49 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:09:45 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:19:31 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:25:22 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:28:55 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-td 23:34:58 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:40:50 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:41:36 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-td 23:47:27 EgeKorka_ has joined #wot-td 23:53:14 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td