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15:52:32 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly focused meeting
15:52:32 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0046d666-d3e8-4032-89e4-8b9a3e6ff40f/20250410T120000/
15:52:32 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:52:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:52:35 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:52:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Which parties carry what costs of text/turtle changes, and do those outweigh which benefits for whom? -> 1 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141
15:52:35 <agendabot> agenda+ map the annotation syntax to rdfs:states -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128
15:52:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Task Force for SPARQL EXISTS -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156
15:52:35 <agendabot> agenda+ More issues we could close, time permitting -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/11
15:53:12 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:54:12 <TallTed> present+
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15:55:36 <AndyS> present+
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15:57:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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16:00:14 <pfps> present+
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16:00:27 <ora> present+
16:00:30 <ora> chair+
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16:00:35 <james> present+
16:00:39 <ktk> present+
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16:01:20 <AndyS> scribe+
16:01:20 <TallTed> agenda?
16:01:27 <pchampin> present+
16:01:30 <william-vw> present+
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16:02:21 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:02:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Which parties carry what costs of text/turtle changes, and do those outweigh which benefits for whom? -> 1 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141 -- taken up
16:02:24 <Zakim> ... [from agendabot]
16:02:44 <rubensworks> q+
16:03:00 <AndyS> rubensworks: summary
16:03:02 <ora> ack rubensworks
16:03:14 <olaf> present+
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16:03:18 <AndyS> ... consolidated propose form issue discussions
16:03:30 <Dominik_T> present+
16:03:39 <niklasl> present+
16:03:42 <AndyS> ... 3 remaining issues
16:03:55 <gkellogg> present+
16:04:15 <AndyS> ... There are two ways to specific the version protocol and in-document syntax
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16:04:39 <AZ> present+
16:04:44 <doerthe> present+
16:04:46 <AndyS> ... should there be a requirement on one/other form
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16:05:11 <enrico> Present+
16:05:26 <AndyS> ... second open question - scope of the VERSION keyword - applis after keword or whole document
16:05:46 <AndyS> ... third - what about NT and NQ? which are line based.
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16:06:06 <Dominik_T> present+
16:06:10 <gkellogg> q+
16:06:18 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:06:42 <AndyS> gkellogg: NT/NQ. Not in favor of adding a keyword.
16:06:54 <pchampin> q+
16:06:58 <ktk> q+
16:06:59 <AndyS> ... various line based usages
16:07:17 <AndyS> ... recognize that this has a downside
16:07:24 <ora> ack pchampin
16:07:59 <AndyS> pchampin: Discuss the options on issue.
16:08:48 <AndyS> ... for NQ/NT line count is not robust - e.g. have comments
16:09:11 <ora> ack ktk
16:09:11 <AndyS> .. maybe @ form is grep friendly.
16:09:19 <AndyS> s/.. /... /
16:09:59 <AndyS> ktk: use case example - file upload in browser has no way to specific the version
16:10:02 <Tpt> q+
16:10:10 <ora> ack Tpt
16:10:33 <pchampin> q+
16:11:20 <ora> ack pchampin
16:12:03 <AndyS> pchampin: Pref version is SHOULD.
16:12:38 <AndyS> ... modern parsers understand the directive- not sure what the would do different.
16:12:53 <AndyS> q+
16:13:18 <AndyS> ora: do we want 1.,1 parsers to break on new content?
16:13:41 <AndyS> pchampin: I see this as making old parser break earlier and in a cleaner way.
16:13:42 <gkellogg> q+
16:13:43 <ora> ack AndyS
16:14:17 <TallTed> q+
16:14:18 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:14:37 <AndyS> andys: pref SHOULD bceause not always relevant
16:14:43 <niklasl> Yes, an old parser *will* break on triple term stuff. So this is for allowing (as as should) to breaking early (by "announcing").
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16:14:54 <enrico> Present+
16:14:56 <pchampin> to be clear, I expect a 1.2 parser to also break when it encounters "VERSION 1.3"
16:15:08 <TallTed> q-
16:15:26 <AndyS> gkellogg: agree on SHOULD
16:15:33 <TallTed> q+
16:15:38 <ora> ack TallTed
16:15:40 <AndyS> ... early break for older parsers
16:16:14 <AndyS> TallTed: don't want everyone (existing deployment) to be forced update if they don't use new features.
16:16:27 <AndyS> ... what about big fixed and errata?
16:17:09 <AndyS> ... this is where MUST has use
16:17:30 <AndyS> s/big fixed/bug fixes/
16:17:56 <AndyS> ora: makes sense.
16:18:05 <rubensworks> q+
16:18:18 <ora> ack rubensworks
16:18:18 <AndyS> ... should we explicitly use encourage use of VERSION?
16:18:34 <Tpt> q+ written: I don't think that making version tags for new features a MUST is a good idea, it mandates streaming serializer to add it even if it's possible (and I guess likely) no directional string and triple terms
16:18:40 <AndyS> rubensworks: would pref allow VERSION if no features in use.
16:18:44 <TallTed> interop (especially data exchange) is where things get extra interesting.
16:18:47 <pchampin> q+
16:19:09 <james> q+
16:19:39 <pchampin> scribe+
16:19:52 <pchampin> AndyS: I agree with Tpt's point, issue with streaming.
16:20:12 <pchampin> ... Not keen of mandating the use of the keyword, it is expensive.
16:20:19 <TallTed> file splits would have to immediately precede a version declaration
16:20:19 <ora> ack pchampin
16:20:22 <pchampin> ... A SHOULD is an encouragement to use it, you should have reasons not to use it.
16:20:41 <gkellogg> q+
16:20:55 <AndyS> pchampin: think spec "SHOULD" is best
16:20:58 <pfps> q+
16:21:24 <AndyS> ... best to make 1.1 if it is possible but not a MUST because of the cost in some situations.
16:21:35 <pfps> q-
16:22:41 <ora> ack james
16:22:47 <AndyS> ... if this marker is there to break old parsers, could use at the point of use but that interacts with "fail early"
16:23:26 <AndyS> james: if the marker is to cause a failure, then a 1.1. marker, crashes a 1.1. parser.
16:23:35 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:23:57 <niklasl> +1 for discouraging `version 1.1`
16:24:04 <AndyS> gkellogg: Agree with james. Only becomes interesting at 1.3/2.0.
16:24:18 <pchampin> +1 gkellogg, "marking" a file as ≤1.1 amounts to put NO version marker
16:24:38 <AndyS> .. general case of serializing graphs, stream of triples so not known if 1.2 until a feature use is seen.
16:24:56 <AndyS> s/.. /... /
16:25:13 <gtw> q+
16:25:17 <pfps> +1 to gkellogg about not knowing whether there are 1.2 features until a long time into the serialization
16:25:24 <AndyS> ... adding at point of use is at the point of syntax failure anyway.
16:25:42 <ora> ack gtw
16:26:00 <AndyS> gtw: Benefit is a better error message.
16:26:17 <james> q+
16:26:22 <ora> ack james
16:27:04 <AndyS> james: Is  there no way that to operate where the app says what to do.
16:27:09 <AndyS> q+
16:27:19 <ora> ack AndyS
16:27:51 <pchampin> s/+1 gkellogg, "marking" a file as ≤1.1 amounts to put NO version marker/<pchampin> +1 gkellogg, "marking" a file as ≤1.1 amounts to put NO version marker
16:29:37 <pchampin> AndyS: content-type parameter can be used with HTTP, it will be ignored if it is not recognized
16:30:01 <pchampin> ... for the rest, we can't expect deployment to occurr at day 1 of RDF 1.2
16:30:04 <AndyS> ora: how to proceed?
16:30:08 <pchampin> scribe-
16:30:38 <AndyS> ... we need some kind of informative language to guide best practice.
16:31:12 <gkellogg> q+
16:31:23 <pchampin> scribe+
16:31:33 <pchampin> AndyS: it is a good idea, but I'm not sure where this language should go
16:31:46 <pchampin> ... rdf-new seems a good place, but it tends to be ignored
16:31:53 <AndyS> ora: could go  in one spec (Turtle?)
16:31:53 <james> q+
16:31:59 <AndyS> ... other point to that.
16:32:05 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:32:07 <TallTed> should be in new *and* in whichever serialization specs can carry it
16:32:32 <AndyS> gkellogg: needs to be each syntax spec. TriG does reference to Turtle.
16:33:06 <AndyS> ... RDF/XML is also a syntax ... what about RDF 1.1 reifications
16:33:17 <ora> ack james
16:33:23 <pchampin> scribe-
16:33:40 <AndyS> james: general description in graph store protocol?
16:34:10 <AndyS> ora: makes sense.
16:34:20 <pchampin> q+
16:34:29 <AndyS> ... more people read Turtle doc
16:34:39 <ora> ack pchampin
16:34:47 <AndyS> gkellogg: a big change in how we layer information
16:35:03 <niklasl> I was +1 on turtle-syntax, but note also the section on concrete syntaxes in concepts: https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#dfn-concrete-rdf-syntax (if the note is _short_ )
16:35:40 <TallTed> rdf-new is fully informative, isn't it?
16:36:06 <TallTed> q+
16:36:14 <AndyS> ora: we need a place for normative pieces.
16:36:16 <ora> ack TallTed
16:36:35 <AndyS> tallted: put in each serialization
16:36:44 <AndyS> q+
16:36:49 <ora> ack AndyS
16:37:27 <AndyS> andys: Possible in RDF Concepts.
16:37:40 <TallTed> +1 appendix of concepts is a good idea. to which rdf-new should then also point. :-)
16:37:43 <pchampin> q+
16:37:49 <AndyS> ora: key is one place and docs point to it.
16:37:49 <ora> ack pchampin
16:38:05 <AndyS> ... need to decide the normative bits.
16:38:22 <AndyS> pchampin: later discussion. Agree on principles now.
16:38:29 <niklasl> q+
16:38:34 <ora> ack niklasl
16:39:12 <AndyS> niklasl: appendix in concepts, maybe the basic/full section.
16:40:04 <AndyS> ... this is about strict syntax not if the data has rdf:reifies triples.
16:40:47 <AndyS> ora: understand principles then normative pieces. Still some details to pin down.
16:41:12 <AndyS> ... someone to write the informative piece?
16:41:13 <rubensworks> q+
16:41:27 <ora> ack rubensworks
16:41:43 <AndyS> gkellogg: I'llhelp
16:41:49 <AndyS> s/help/ help/
16:42:00 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:42:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- map the annotation syntax to rdfs:states -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:42:03 <ktk> q+
16:42:04 <AndyS> rubensworks: I'll help.
16:42:09 <ora> ack ktk
16:42:33 <niklasl> Specifically, an Accept: text/turtle;version=1.1 may trigger an application to turn data into RDF 1.2 Classic/Basic to be nice to the client parser (but thus also semantically lossy).
16:42:36 <AndyS> ktk: request to postpone because of late input
16:42:43 <AndyS> tl: agree
16:42:46 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:42:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ktk
16:43:34 <ktk> Zakim, open item 3
16:43:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Task Force for SPARQL EXISTS -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/156 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:44:02 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:44:17 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:44:18 <AndyS> ora: Idea is to prepare for EXISTS - not a priority for the whole WG at this time.
16:44:30 <AndyS> ... does the group agrees?
16:44:41 <ktk> regrets+ fsasaki
16:44:48 <AndyS> ... who will chair?
16:44:55 <AndyS> s/agress/agree/
16:45:09 <AndyS> ora: james - would you chair this?
16:45:32 <AndyS> james: insufficient experience of W3C processes
16:45:59 <AndyS> ora: it involves scheduling and making the TF moves forward
16:46:07 <gkellogg> q+
16:46:12 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:46:41 <AndyS> gkellogg: Agree to TF and maybe other items in the WG for subsets of the participants
16:46:59 <james> q+
16:47:05 <ora> ack james
16:47:08 <AndyS> ... creates a place for discussions. I would participate.
16:47:23 <AndyS> james: sub-group decide chair?
16:47:56 <AndyS> Andys: I can schedule a first meeting
16:48:24 <TallTed> TF(s) will let focused conversation(s) take place in parallel with main group without consuming main group time. I don't think I will have the time to do much if any more than participate (which I will *try* to do).
16:48:40 <james> q+
16:48:43 <pchampin> q+
16:48:51 <AndyS> ktk: can external people participate?
16:48:56 <AndyS> q+
16:49:21 <ora> ack james
16:49:36 <ora> ack pchampin
16:49:46 <TallTed> TF participants must be WG members, whether as W3CMember reps or as IEs
16:49:47 <AndyS> james: certainly agree for external participants
16:50:09 <TallTed> q+
16:50:14 <AndyS> pchampin: chairs can invite (and to WG meetings)
16:50:53 <AndyS> ... need to check if a member org can specific a person outside of their org.
16:50:54 <TallTed> IP issues can quickly become quite hairy.
16:51:29 <ora> ack AndyS
16:51:59 <ora> ack TallTed
16:52:27 <AndyS> tallted: depends on their input (IP issues need care)
16:53:15 <AndyS> ... if they are contributing significantly, should do the IP side.
16:56:02 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:56:10 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:56:10 <AndyS> ora: adjourned
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17:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/10-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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17:52:51 <TallTed> Zakim, bye
17:52:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, AndyS, rubensworks, tl, pfps, ora, gtw, james, ktk, Souri, eBremer, pchampin, william-vw, olaf, Dominik_T, niklasl,
17:52:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:52:54 <Zakim> ... gkellogg, AZ, doerthe, enrico
17:53:01 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
17:53:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items