16:00:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:01:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-irc
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16:01:04 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
16:01:12 <tl> present+
16:01:15 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e99f9039-f9bc-4333-b7a1-dd4c5a02d8b2/20250403T120000/
16:01:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:01:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
16:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:01:17 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:01:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [6]
16:01:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:01:26 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:01:31 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:01:32 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:01:37 <AZ> present+
16:01:48 <niklasl> present+
16:01:48 <james> present+
16:01:48 <AndyS> present+
16:02:01 <ktk> present+
16:02:11 <eBremer> present+
16:02:13 <abc> abc has joined #rdf-star
16:02:16 <olaf> present+
16:02:28 <ktk> Scribe: tl
16:02:32 <gkellogg> present+
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16:02:38 <ktk> Chair: ktk
16:02:40 <gtw> present+
16:02:42 <pfps> present+
16:03:04 <ktk> regrets+ Dominik_T, fsasaki
16:03:36 <ktk> Zakim, open issue 1
16:03:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open issue 1', ktk
16:03:49 <ktk> Zakim, open topic 1
16:03:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open topic 1', ktk
16:03:53 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:57 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:59 <Tpt> present+
16:04:19 <pfps> minutes look good to me
16:04:21 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:04:23 <pchampin> present+
16:04:27 <Souri> present+
16:04:28 <ktk> q?
16:04:35 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve last two meetings' minutes.
16:04:44 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:04:49 <niklasl> +1
16:04:50 <tl> +1
16:04:52 <ktk> +1
16:04:53 <AZ> +1
16:04:54 <eBremer> +1
16:04:54 <olaf> +1
16:04:59 <james> +1
16:05:02 <AndyS> +1
16:05:05 <pchampin> +0.5 (was absent last week)
16:05:07 <gtw> +1
16:05:28 <pfps> +1
16:05:29 <gkellogg> +1
16:05:32 <Tpt> +1
16:05:41 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve last two meetings' minutes.
16:05:43 <doerthe> present+
16:05:47 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:47 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:24 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:06:44 <pfps> Are we at the stage of reviewing Concepts?
16:06:49 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
16:07:03 <ktk> q?
16:07:33 <tl> ktk: comments on peter's question?
16:07:35 <pchampin> q+
16:07:46 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:08:21 <tl> pchampin: still needs to do a pass on the issues (most of them seem to be minor)
16:08:26 <niklasl> q+
16:08:32 <tl> s/needs/need
16:08:33 <ktk> ack niklasl
16:08:37 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/145
16:08:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/145 -> Issue 145 Clarify introduction of triple terms and reification (by niklasl) [ms:CR]
16:09:17 <tl> niklas (points pchampin to issue 145)
16:09:38 <ktk> q?
16:09:50 <olaf> q+
16:09:57 <ktk> ack olaf
16:10:17 <tl> olaf: have no open todos myself
16:10:36 <gkellogg> q+
16:10:59 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:11:35 <tl> gkellogg: changes to RDF schema, and move datatype definitions from schema to concepts have been discussed. should be done before publishing
16:12:22 <tl> ... interaction between documents makes it hard to publish concepts, schema and semantics seperately from each other (at different times)
16:13:04 <tl> ... getting closer to publishing, need some effort, but need to split our efforts between those three documenst
16:13:13 <abc> abc has joined #rdf-star
16:13:20 <AndyS> q+
16:13:32 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:13:35 <tl> ktk: so concepts wil not be a topic next week
16:14:03 <tl> andys: pr on conceprts wrt non normative wording [???]
16:14:20 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:15:01 <tl> ... we have to deal with it
16:15:07 <pchampin> q+
16:15:10 <gkellogg> q+
16:15:15 <tl> ktk: propose to making this first topic next week
16:15:17 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:16:10 <tl> gkellogg: we don't want to make any broad changes wrt suggestions versus normative
16:16:26 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:16:30 <tl> s/normative/normative wording
16:17:01 <tl> .. don't try to be copmpürehensive across all documents
16:17:23 <tl> ... would reject [???] pr
16:17:31 <pfps> +1 to rejecting the PR
16:17:34 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG -- 2025-04-03 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e99f9039-f9bc-4333-b7a1-dd4c5a02d8b2/20250403T120000/
16:17:41 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182
16:17:41 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/182 -> Pull Request 182 Declare advisement level keywords for non-normative content in Conformance (by csarven) [needs discussion] [spec:editorial]
16:18:01 <pchampin> s|[???] pr|w3c/rdfconcepts#182
16:18:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:18:50 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:18:52 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:18:56 <TallTed> present+
16:19:00 <pchampin> w3c/rdf-star-wg#141
16:19:01 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141 -> Issue 141 Which parties carry what costs of text/turtle changes, and do those outweigh which benefits for whom? (by RubenVerborgh) [needs discussion]
16:19:15 <AndyS> Ruben's write-up -- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/version-proposal.md
16:19:46 <tl> pchampin: suggest to discuss issue #141. proposal by ruben has been made. i like it uand would like us to make a decision. we need at least n-triples to be published in a first round, to make the test work. so this should be on the top of our list
16:19:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/141 -> Issue 141 Which parties carry what costs of text/turtle changes, and do those outweigh which benefits for whom? (by RubenVerborgh) [needs discussion]
16:20:14 <tl> ... suggest that everyone has a look at this so that we can make a decision next week
16:20:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:20:22 <ktk> q?
16:20:31 <pfps> q+
16:20:56 <TallTed> s/copmpürehensive/comprehensive/
16:21:01 <tl> pfps: didn't we talk about 147?
16:21:17 <tl> pchampin: seems like we could close it
16:22:17 <pchampin> scribe+
16:22:21 <tl> ktk: same for 128
16:22:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:23:18 <tl> pfps: will check if anything in 147 has to be done, but it has been voted on and can be closed
16:23:28 <pchampin> tl: I think #128 still needs to be discussed
16:23:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/128 -> Issue 128 map the annotation syntax to `rdfs:states` (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing]
16:23:32 <pchampin> scribe-
16:23:33 <tl> tL: 128 can't be closed just yet
16:24:01 <tl> andys: sparql exists
16:24:28 <tl> ktk: discussion about task force for sparql exists
16:25:27 <pchampin> scribe+
16:25:54 <pchampin> tl: the graphical representations in concept and primer are conflating the asserted statement and the triple term
16:26:06 <pchampin> ... this goes agains what has been long discussed in the WG
16:26:14 <pchampin> s/agains /against /
16:26:36 <pchampin> ... I need to sort my thoughts, I'll prepare something for next week
16:26:44 <pchampin> AndyS: is this the syntax discussion?
16:27:08 <pchampin> tl: no we voted on that. We need people to understand that the reified statement and the statement itself are two different things.
16:27:41 <ktk> q?
16:27:46 <pchampin> ... I'll provide a summary that decouples it from the annotation syntax.
16:27:46 <niklasl> Note that triple terms are no longer distinct from triples: a triple term is a triple used as an object. The triple itself denotes a proposition. If the triple is in the graph (which is a set of triples), it is a fact in the interpretation.
16:27:56 <ktk> ack pfps
16:27:57 <pfps> ask pfps
16:28:10 <pfps> s/ask/ack/
16:28:21 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:28:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:38 <pchampin> q+
16:28:39 <tl> scribe+
16:28:44 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:29:00 <ktk> Actions: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:29:19 <tl> pchampin: first one (?) is not yet done for the primer. second one can be paused
16:29:46 <tl> ... first draft note of the primer has been published.
16:29:50 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-primer/
16:29:53 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/upcoming/
16:30:23 <tl> ... links now point to the latest published versions unless they ask for a specific version
16:31:19 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:31:20 <ktk> q?
16:31:38 <tl> ... until we make it a note rather than a draft note
16:31:52 <tl> pfps: 151 is done
16:32:09 <tl> ... will be closed
16:32:20 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150
16:32:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/150 -> Action 150 Create note on triple term owlification (on niklasl) due 2025-03-07
16:32:36 <tl> niklas: not much progress on that one
16:33:28 <tl> pfps: issue #####? came out of a semantics meeting two weeks ago
16:33:47 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:33:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:33:49 <tl> ... we need new entailment test and haven't decided yet who does it
16:34:14 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:35:04 <pfps> The semantics task force meeting might want to discuss https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115
16:35:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/115 -> Action 115 add tests for entailment of triple terms (on )
16:35:10 <ktk> q?
16:36:08 <niklasl> This is the respec PR: https://github.com/speced/respec/pull/4925
16:36:09 <gb> https://github.com/speced/respec/pull/4925 -> Pull Request 4925 Support dark mode toggle for SVGs and highlight.js (by niklasl)
16:36:17 <tl> gkellogg: a number of issues relate to dark mode, and niklas is working on something
16:36:26 <tl> ktk: propose to ignore those for now
16:36:41 <olaf> q+
16:36:43 <tl> .... so sparql remains
16:37:04 <tl> greggwilliams: working on code points
16:37:14 <gtw> s/greggwilliams:/gtw:/
16:37:24 <tl> olaf: will work on sparql query
16:37:41 <gkellogg> q+
16:37:48 <ktk> ack olaf
16:38:19 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:38:43 <tl> gkellogg: same term/same value seems t have a lot to do with NAN, but we can't test those, so why making it normative?
16:39:19 <tl> andys: worthwhile to spend some time on it as long as the documents are open
16:39:43 <tl> ... functions and operators handling values ####?
16:40:42 <tl> ktk: so this one stays open?
16:41:01 <tl> olaf: just looked at it, i will approve it right away
16:42:55 <ktk> q?
16:42:56 <tl> gkellogg: more work on tests outstanding. also RDF/XML...
16:43:10 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:43:10 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -- taken up [from 6]
16:43:56 <tl> andys: there's a proposed closing tab as i've just seen. maybe could be made use of
16:44:06 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/11
16:44:13 <tl> ktk: propose to use it
16:46:24 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/63
16:46:24 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/63 -> CLOSED Issue 63 need name for `~` separating `iri`/`BlankNode` production and `reifier` that follows (by TallTed) [propose closing]
16:46:44 <pchampin> i|ktk: propose to use it|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/63
16:46:59 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:47:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:47:21 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/51
16:47:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/51 -> Issue 51 HTML code in the spec has bad quality (by domel) [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:48:01 <tl> gkellogg: still like the code quality to improve
16:48:30 <tl> pchampin: took an action to make dominics changes more reviewable but didn't have time
16:48:49 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/139
16:48:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/139 -> Issue 139 Merge unstar mapping PR into RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax (by rat10) [ms:CR] [propose closing]
16:49:27 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/144
16:49:28 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/144 -> Issue 144 the term identity comparison must be defined for triple terms (by lisp) [propose closing]
16:49:52 <ktk> q?
16:50:14 <ktk> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/34
16:50:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/34 -> Issue 34 2.2 rdfs:Class (by riannella) [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:50:53 <pchampin> q+
16:51:10 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:52:07 <AndyS> q+
16:52:30 <tl> pchampin: made a pass on RDF Schema recently. the document a s a whole is self-sufficient, some individual terms could use more clarity
16:53:18 <pchampin> q+
16:53:52 <tl> pfps: adding a little link "see above" (refering to that section that talks about classes) would be adequate. otherwise we would need to write a long document about iontology modelling with classes
16:54:45 <tl> pchampin: as an alternative to "see above" the introduction could define a few terms explicitly (using DFN tag)
16:55:33 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:55:35 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:55:50 <pchampin> I agree: the statement that `rdfs:Class a rdfs:Class` is not supposed to explain what classes are.
16:56:08 <tl> andys: does the confusion maybe come from rdfs:Class being defined as being an instnace of rdfs:Class? in that case a proper definition of rdfs:Class wouldn't help
16:56:41 <pchampin> and then `rdfs:Resource a rdfs:Class. rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Resource.` :->
16:57:57 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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<pchampin> regrets+ ora