08:57:58 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 08:58:02 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-pmwg-irc 08:58:02 RRSAgent, make logs Public 08:58:03 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 08:58:03 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2025-04-03: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SePiVZDlyWNg5nhqBffCXSh7_EGC5IXPz9nTd8i1sdw/edit?tab=t.dbiebco88mfi#heading=h.gouartxyduig 08:58:04 Chair: wendy, shinya 08:58:04 Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SePiVZDlyWNg5nhqBffCXSh7_EGC5IXPz9nTd8i1sdw/edit?tab=t.dbiebco88mfi#heading=h.gouartxyduig 08:58:04 Meeting: PM Working Group F2F, Sophia Antipolis, 1st Day 08:58:05 present+ 08:58:13 q+ 08:58:13 present+ 08:58:15 q- 08:58:19 present+ dhall 08:58:20 present+ 08:58:27 present+ wendyreid 08:58:36 present+ 08:59:17 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 08:59:47 George has joined #pmwg 09:00:15 present+ 09:00:35 scribe+ 09:00:39 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 09:00:41 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 09:00:54 present+ 09:00:54 present+ 09:00:59 present+ 09:01:14 preent+ makoto 09:01:30 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 09:01:45 wendyreid: Welcome the first f2f of the NEW pmwg 09:01:47 present + 09:01:58 https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/blob/main/meetings/F2FMeetingFrance2025.md 09:02:09 George has joined #pmwg 09:02:10 ... Quick agenda overview, no real change except the times 09:02:49 ... start with comics, mostly focusing on the overall topic. Not really a tech conversion which will be tomorrow 09:02:50 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 09:02:54 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 09:03:00 present+ 09:03:08 present+ 09:03:40 ... (see agenda for details) 09:03:58 ... no buffer for today, so we may have carryover into tomorrow 09:04:06 ... Questions? 09:04:09 George has joined #pmwg 09:04:25 Makoto: When will we discuss ISO? 09:05:19 wendyreid: I don't think we will discuss, we are waiting for feedback and reaching out to some folks 09:05:31 Topic: Digital Comics 09:05:49 gautier has joined #pmwg 09:06:04 present+ 09:06:06 shiestyle: I have a presentation for this. We have already had our first TF meeting last month 09:06:24 Hadrien: Just to clarify, we shouldn't be touching on tech stuff? 09:06:27 George has joined #pmwg 09:06:54 present+ susan 09:06:58 wendyreid: Yes, tech is fine but we should be more on the general side, tomorrow will be better for tech (more participants) 09:07:37 shiestyle: In Japan we already use epub for scrolled comics 09:08:02 ... We have two approaches both are being used 09:08:17 ... There is also a new proposal from Hadrien 09:08:44 Hadrien: ust to clarify, I am just proposing 'scrolled' to replace the existing methods 09:09:11 shiestyle: We agreed that this is a new feature 09:09:30 s/ust/just/ 09:09:38 ... so the charter is updated for new features 09:09:55 ... We still have no conclusion to the method 09:10:11 ... Some proposals, first Hadrien's proposal 09:10:11 q+ 09:11:07 ... second proposal is a new proposal that keeps pre-paginated but adds new metadata 09:11:21 q+ 09:11:23 ack Hadrien 09:11:31 Hadrien: What are we trying to achieve? 09:11:56 ... 2 things - we are trying fit on width 09:12:05 ... and the other is continuous scrolling 09:12:31 q+ 09:12:31 ... Scrolling exists, but it is really a hint so it is different than what we want 09:12:52 ... pre-paginated doesn't do what we want, flow doesn't fit 09:13:10 Avneesh has joined #pmwg 09:13:12 ... This is a new type of publication 09:13:14 q+ 09:13:26 ... for instance it doesn't even have pages to pre-paginated is weird 09:13:40 ... Since it is a new type, layout makes sense 09:14:22 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 09:14:29 q? 09:14:33 ... We could alias pre-paginated and scrolled to mean webtoons 09:14:41 ... I think a new type makes sense 09:14:42 q+ 09:14:46 ack ivan 09:14:54 ivan: I do not disagree 09:15:03 ... my question is actual practice 09:15:15 ... do we have feedback from Amazon and Apple 09:15:19 q+ 09:15:23 ... will they adopt the new approach 09:15:26 ... ? 09:15:58 ... Are they flexible enough to switch? 09:16:07 Hadrien: This happened with fixed layout 09:16:12 ack wendyreid 09:16:14 q+ 09:16:40 wendyreid: I agree, but I also wonder to take a step back we have an underlying problem in fixed layout 09:17:14 ... Since webtoons is chapter based, this exposes a problem. This content is very chapter based 09:17:25 sue-neu has joined #pmwg 09:17:33 present+ 09:17:50 ... for instance, rendition flow breaks because we don't really have chapters in pre-paginated 09:18:14 ... What if we keep things as they are currently implemented and add better chapter breaks 09:18:31 ... How are these actually created? One file er chapter? or per image? 09:18:39 s/present+ susan// 09:18:42 Hadrien: One file per chapter 09:19:21 ack shiestyle 09:19:21 ... It could be used for selling full seasons 09:19:55 shiestyle: Regarding epub structure, webtoons and manga are all the same structure except the metadata 09:20:02 Makoto has joined #pmwg 09:20:13 +present 09:20:14 ack duga 09:20:16 scribe+ 09:20:18 ... we don't use very long images, so as a result the structure is the same 09:20:47 duga: I was hoping we'd learn more about what is actually being sold on the various platforms. It's hard to think of a technical solution without knowing the business specifics 09:20:58 ... it is a single book, are there collections, will there be collections? 09:21:12 ... what is the problem we're solving, what are people selling, what do people want to sell? 09:21:33 ... it would help to have real cases or an actual webtoon file 09:21:37 ... do we have examples? 09:21:44 ... where is the industry right now? 09:22:18 Hadrien: It's a complex question, complex market 09:22:20 q+ 09:22:35 q+ seth 09:22:43 ack seth 09:23:05 ack LaurentLM 09:23:09 seth: Is each episode just one image? Are the images huge? 09:23:52 q+ 09:23:56 LaurentLM: The people around the table have the freedom to change 09:24:36 ack ivan 09:24:37 ... Can we take a new value? Yes, we can add a note and explain that there are other implementations that should be considered aliases? 09:24:58 ivan: So do we have any chance to pass the CR criteria? 09:25:08 ack dhall 09:25:15 Hadrien: Yes, no problem, I am aware of multiple presentations 09:25:59 dhall: We would continue to support for now, can't discuss future 09:26:00 ack Hadrien 09:26:17 ... And agree that fit width is important and we need to be able to specify it 09:26:37 Hadrien: No one today produces episodes as a single image, largely for performance 09:26:56 ... no one really divides things on semantic boundaries, they are arbitrarily split 09:26:58 q+ 09:27:15 ... it is meant to be displayed as a single image, so these are really just tiles 09:27:50 ... Also want to point out that html is not really used to display this 09:27:53 delackner has joined #pmwg 09:28:08 ... Everyone uses images outside of Apple (not sure about Amazon) 09:28:20 q+ 09:28:35 ... Back to market question, mostly done in specialized readers 09:29:11 ... Mostly this is done by free with ads, or perhaps subscriptions, sometimes there is microtransactions 09:29:17 ... much more like games 09:29:27 ... Mostly this is done in those apps, not epub readers 09:29:41 q+ 09:30:01 q+ 09:30:06 ... These apps are designed around the model (calendars for upcoming, package purchases, etc) 09:30:13 present+ delackner 09:30:16 ... almost all done as individual episodes 09:30:19 q+ 09:30:44 Hadrien: usually is a giant file or zips of images 09:31:03 ... Most places use psd or zip, not epub 09:31:16 ... Korea is interesting as they are pushing to a national standard 09:31:27 ... they are adopting a Readium approach 09:31:45 ... they looked at epub, and thought it was too complex and had too many problems 09:32:06 ack shiestyle 09:32:09 ... so for their archiving work they are using zips 09:32:17 shiestyle: Regarding long images 09:32:32 ... some services accept long images, but these are not in epub 09:32:50 q+ 09:32:58 ... I strongly propose to not add a new value for rendition layout 09:33:18 ... we cannot move to the new system until everyone adopts the new values 09:33:52 ... In Japan we have a big market, but we cannot shift to the new standard due to compat issue 09:33:52 ack sue-neu 09:34:26 sue-neu: Does anyone know about the copyright? 09:34:40 wendyreid: Webtoons is ok, webtoon is not 09:34:44 You can say kleenexes but not kleenex? 09:34:51 ack ivan 09:35:16 q+ 09:35:19 ivan: Why are we doing this? Why not just leave the specialized apps to do it? 09:35:33 ack delackner 09:35:33 ... we seem to be pushing ourselves on people that don't want it 09:35:56 seth: I wanted to ask about the Korean model 09:36:00 gautier has joined #pmwg 09:36:35 ... We have html for a111y, voiceover, etc 09:36:45 s/a111y/a11y/ 09:36:48 ... that is the push to have epub wrap this 09:37:09 ... does the Korean format have an a11y answer? 09:37:47 Hadrien: We are looking at it, it has more of a media overlay flavor 09:38:08 q? 09:38:25 ... We really want to have the text become accessible 09:38:28 ack duga 09:38:46 duga: I've had Ivan's question too 09:38:52 ... we're doing it because people have asked us to 09:39:03 ... EPUB may not be the right format, but some people want to do it that way anyway 09:39:10 ... and we can let them, we can make it work 09:39:34 ... if I were to start a company doing webtoons today, I wouldn't use EPUB, but if they wanted to, I could make it work 09:40:05 ... even manga was a zip archive of images, there was a push to using EPUB, we ended up supporting it because its nice to have metadata 09:40:34 ... issues with pages being wrong order, EPUB fixes that with metadata, it is nice, there are uses 09:40:46 ack wendyreid 09:41:29 wendyreid: The feedback we have gotten is some publishers might want bug collections 09:41:48 ... I agree that if people want it let's help them 09:42:20 ... this group also supports other formats like publication manifest, which might be a more flexible format 09:43:08 ... we need to be responsive to industry need, and we don't need to be stuck in just epub 09:43:09 q+ 09:43:48 ... for instance webtoons have terrible a11y, and it would be great to make this better 09:44:07 ack Hadrien 09:44:12 ivan: I checked the charter, we can update the publication manifest 09:44:27 s/bug/to sell big/ 09:44:49 Hadrien: This is broader and goes into digital comics entirely 09:45:17 ... We should keep in mind, this one distribution channel is not the only one we should consider 09:45:33 ... e.g. libraries making collections 09:45:48 ... And there is also the case of storefronts that might want to sell them 09:46:02 ... You can't really separate the business models from the technical 09:46:06 sue-neu has joined #pmwg 09:46:12 ... back to zip vs epub 09:46:15 present+ 09:46:22 present+ 09:46:32 .... what Korea said was metadata was bad for archival in epub 09:46:52 ... for instance, spread placement isn't a big issue for webtoons 09:47:03 q+ 09:47:16 ... we need to look at what works and what doesn't 09:47:42 ... and I think the most problematic is forcing images into an html wrapper 09:48:12 ... I don't think this just solves the a11y problem. We have a lot of inaccessible xhtml content out there today 09:48:16 q+ 09:48:25 ... we really need to focus on what does and does not work 09:48:27 zakim, close the queue 09:48:27 ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is closed 09:48:49 ... for a11y we need to focus on specific use cases 09:48:52 ack Avneesh 09:49:27 Avneesh: I am a little alarmed about Korea taking readium manifest, I am concerned about Korea going to ISO quickly 09:49:32 q+ 09:49:38 ack ivan 09:49:43 ... I think it is a problem if we are against the Korean national standard 09:49:49 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 09:50:07 ivan: 2 things - first according to the Koreans epub MD is not good for archival 09:50:14 ... This is something we should address 09:50:41 ... the other is, what is wrong with saying we can put images in the spine with an xhtml fallback? 09:51:07 ack sue 09:51:20 ... but the xhtml fallback isn't the image it is just alt 09:51:43 sue-neu: I have clients looking this as parts of courseware, say for a history book 09:51:56 wendyreid: We will continue this tomorrow 09:52:38 Topic: Accessibility TF 09:52:57 zakim, open the queue 09:52:57 ok, wendyreid, the speaker queue is open 09:53:19 Avneesh: We didn't have time to plan for the a11y TF 09:53:24 https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/PMWG-Accessibility-TF-Topics 09:53:29 ... so we thought we could use this meeting for that 09:53:49 ... so we have a wiki with a list of topics 09:54:46 ... we have strong demand from APA for wcag version 09:54:56 ... then there are some issues from the cg 09:55:16 ... for instance metadata to say text/audio mix 09:55:36 ... then we have a11y md that is missing, for instance no publisher contact info 09:55:58 ... Then with AI we have to know if TTS is AI or human based 09:55:59 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 09:56:12 present+ 09:56:22 ... Then we have to define skippability and escapability 09:56:37 ... Some liason work 09:56:51 q+ 09:56:51 ... any comments? 09:57:16 I had a teleconference with AGWG people including people from the team about the lack of support of non-western languages in WCAG 2.2. People are inclined to create WCAG 2.3 as a solution but I am not sure if AGWG reaches cosensus. 09:57:33 ivan: We should not forget to officially issue a new a11y guidelines with the proper version. We need wg consensus 09:57:45 Avneesh: Yes, let's do that tomorrow 09:57:50 ... now harder topics 09:58:15 q+ 09:58:16 ... we maintain a mapping to EAA 09:58:18 ack ivan 09:58:21 wendyreid 09:58:23 ack ivan 09:58:28 ack wendyreid 09:58:31 ... do we need to add anything to that? 09:59:01 wendyreid: One thing I hear a lot is parts of wcag like image desc where publishers have trouble doing it in the context of books 09:59:18 q+ 09:59:36 ... Wcag doesn't seem to make sense to them, that is mapping web/app descriptions to book descriptions (what to say, how to integrate, etc) 09:59:42 sue-neu has joined #pmwg 09:59:46 .... may be related to footnote work 09:59:58 ... maybe we need some guidelines 10:00:32 q? 10:00:41 ack gpellegrino 10:00:41 ack gpe 10:00:42 q+ 10:00:42 Avneesh: Yes we should discuss, and yes footnotes is similar 10:01:34 gpellegrino: Mybe we need something like an index page to link to everything we provide 10:01:42 ... it is hard to find all the documents we have 10:01:57 +1 10:01:59 q? 10:02:03 ack George 10:02:18 George: I agree there is a lot going on in different places, and I am often confused about where the right place to take issues is 10:03:04 ... For instance back links to a footnote, but if the reading system had go back it wouldn't be needed 10:03:19 ... it is determines how things might be referenced 10:03:37 ... for instance a glossary term that is pointed at 3 times, a back link doesn't work 10:03:54 ... so who addresses these? Us? CG? somewhere else? 10:04:23 wendyreid: I think the CG is usually right, but sometimes it is us 10:04:54 Avneesh: EAA and title 2 - anything else we need to do to support this? 10:05:27 ... and then there is dpub aria 10:05:35 gautier has joined #pmwg 10:05:35 ... Matt is the liason 10:05:51 q+ 10:06:02 ... It has strong use cases and long consistent systems for implementing 10:06:12 ack Hadrien 10:06:14 .... if we want some new roles we have to do it now 10:06:36 Hadrien: On Readium we plan to improve read aloud, the other readability 10:06:50 q+ 10:06:59 ... we will have a lower level building block that supports dpub and dpub aria 10:07:28 ... This will help identify a11y behaviors 10:07:36 ... eg move where footnotes are read 10:08:05 ... We will use the dpub aria for read aloud, which hasn't been used yet. This will be a pretty open implementation 10:08:47 ... We will have multiple implementations, not sure if that counts as 2+ 10:08:55 ... this will be coming this summer 10:09:14 Avneesh: Jaws is supporting 50% of dpub aria coming up 10:09:20 q+ 10:09:27 ack gpellegrinoack gpellegrino 10:09:31 ... so screen reader are starting to support it 10:09:39 present+ CharlesL 10:09:51 q? 10:09:52 q+ 10:09:55 gpellegrino: we found out a while back that talkback on chrome supported all dpub aria roles. 10:09:58 ack gpellegrino 10:10:08 ... the browsers are there, there is still some discussion with Apple 10:10:26 ... I think the dpub aria roles are deeper than epub ones 10:10:55 ... We used to have epub types, then we had aria which lost some things 10:11:28 present+ mattg 10:11:41 ... In many cases these roles are important for the production workflows not just end user 10:11:43 present+ rdeltour 10:11:56 ack CharlesL 10:12:01 ... There is a request to add common ways to identify certain items in there books 10:12:40 q+ 10:12:41 present+ MasakazuKitahara 10:12:53 present+ toshiakikoike 10:13:05 CharlesL: couple things, on title 2 we have heard that the dept of special ed still exists 10:13:08 q+ 10:13:32 ... but there has been a de-emphasis on title 2, unlikely for justice dept to start filling lawsuits on day 1 10:13:38 ... but individuals still can 10:14:13 ... on dpub aria, one thing we may want to require is digital only publications for page breaks (some publishers having issues with that) 10:14:34 ... there is a dpub aria role for it, in our tests everyone handles it differently 10:15:15 ... Then there is the question if it is in code only but doesn't appear 10:15:23 ... or it appears and has more words, etc 10:15:36 ... that can be problematic for AT 10:15:56 ack wendyreid 10:16:37 wendyreid: dpub aria is similar to footnotes, needs best practices 10:16:50 ... so we need expected behavior when we see it 10:16:57 s/present+ mattg// 10:17:06 present+ mgarrish 10:17:17 ... page breaks is similar to footnotes on when and how to read 10:17:31 ... Then there is FL with dpub aria 10:17:48 ... Not every page is a chapter so you can't add it to every files 10:18:13 q+ 10:18:13 ack George 10:18:20 ... Need to see where the gaps are 10:18:57 George: Excercises are important, it would be good to address the issues of how to do exercises and workbooks 10:19:11 ... Publishers will move the epub into an LMS 10:19:29 ack mgarrish 10:19:35 ... so it would be great to address exercises and workbook completions in an epub 10:20:01 mgarrish: We have had problems with roles, and too much verbosity 10:20:26 ... so we can't just keep throwing in new roles 10:21:08 ... For work on 1.2 Tviya works with me, but we will need a new person to help with editing that spec 10:21:15 ack Hadrien 10:21:18 ... because we can't have just one 10:21:31 Hadrien: There was also the structural semantic vocab 10:21:57 ... in readium we primarily target dpub aria, but we have other properties we are pulling in 10:22:08 ... Also aria, which isn't used much in epub 10:22:16 ... So we are agnostic and pull in all 3 10:23:00 ... we have to take into account everything 10:23:03 q? 10:23:50 Avneesh: There are some things we will bring to the TF, not sure if the topic George raised can really be handled there 10:24:07 ... We already keep a list of actionable aria roles 10:24:31 ... It is missing some details (e.g. footnotes go back), but the high level is there 10:24:43 gpellegrino: And we have a test book that has every role 10:25:07 George: And we have a published book with all the dpub aria roles we can support 10:25:23 present+ 10:28:44 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 11:52:56 dhall has joined #pmwg 11:58:19 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 11:59:48 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 12:01:36 gautierchomel has joined #pmwg 12:03:29 scribe+ 12:04:16 wendyreid: we're now speaking about annotations 12:04:46 present+ 12:04:49 sue-neu has joined #pmwg 12:04:50 Avneesh has joined #pmwg 12:04:56 p+ 12:05:09 laurent: I'm going to share some slides 12:05:29 ... today I would like to discuss an agenda of work, not to discuss the single items 12:05:52 ... we would like to start about discussing the incentives for TF participants 12:06:07 ... use cases, business cases, etc. 12:06:21 ... then discuss for annotations, bookmarks, annotations 12:06:53 ... then discuss the scope of the project (embedding, rest protocol, etc.) 12:07:13 ... find existing apps that are already exporting annotations 12:07:47 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 12:07:48 ... check to look at the data model available: W3C Annotation Model, Readium Annotation Model 12:08:04 ... to find differences, and common elements 12:08:39 s/p+// 12:08:55 q? 12:08:56 laurent: so we'll start with the incentives for the participants, what are the market requests 12:09:02 Topic: Annotations 12:09:05 present+ 12:09:32 is there anyone that wants to propose incentives? 12:09:40 q+ 12:09:44 ack mgarrish 12:10:10 present+ 12:10:11 mgarrish: we worked on open annotations years ago with edupub 12:10:22 ... it didn't work 12:10:30 q+ 12:10:42 ack ivan 12:10:44 q+ 12:10:58 ... I think you should clarify if it's for publishers to distribute them, or for users to share them across reading systems 12:11:25 ivan: I have here the list of people that wants to partecipate to the TF 12:12:11 laurent: I asked to ReadWise (?), I may ask to hypothes.is 12:12:37 George has joined #pmwg 12:13:02 present+ 12:13:17 ... because I don't have contacts, and their solution is based on URLs 12:13:32 ack wendyreid 12:13:34