16:56:34 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:56:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-aria-irc 16:56:38 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:56:39 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:56:43 jamesn has changed the topic to: 16:56:55 agendabot, find agenda 16:56:55 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:56:56 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ef1f2d62-1c5d-4300-916c-b54d87c3ad98/20250403T130000/ 16:56:56 clear agenda 16:56:56 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3DZu4sI 16:56:56 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-27+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues 16:56:59 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 16:57:01 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:57:04 agenda+ -> [ariaNotify] avoid pestering/annoyance of notifications, either too many or too irrelevant https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2499 16:57:07 agenda+ -> Missing author requirement for use of tabs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2497 16:59:47 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 16:59:56 agenda? 17:00:59 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:01:03 present+ 17:01:08 pkra has joined #aria 17:01:11 scribe+ 17:02:04 present+ 17:02:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-aria-minutes.html hdv 17:02:43 Zakim, take up next 17:02:43 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3DZu4sI -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:02:56 scott has joined #aria 17:03:02 present+ 17:03:20 regrets+ 17:03:26 pkra: re issue 2507… this came out of conversation with scott 17:03:32 pkra: maybe we can talk about this at some time 17:03:33 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:03:39 present+ 17:03:55 jamesn: to progress this, we need implementation info about all browsers 17:04:17 pkra: it's just an author requirement, it's already possible to add aria-details 17:04:33 jamesn: not sure if it is supported anywhere 17:04:35 scott: it is 17:04:53 scott: in JAWS and NVDA 17:05:19 scott: 2 or 3. But not implemented in webkit yet 17:05:37 jamesn: in this example… we have describedby and details on something… why is that a good idea? 17:06:40 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:06:48 present+ 17:07:14 present+ 17:07:16 q? 17:07:19 scott: in the situation we were talking about… and what I've seen come up… someone might have something that's a tooltip, but it's long content or possibly even interactive content. You want to provide an association from the invoking element and the popup, role=tooltip might be useful for that. The aria-describedby could be provided as a short description in addition to the name…but then also provide aria-details to link up the whole popup 17:07:19 q+ 17:07:31 evelynnkaplan has joined #aria 17:07:36 qv? 17:07:46 scott: would be useful to provide guidance re when to use this for a 'rich tooltip' 17:07:47 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 17:07:57 present+ 17:07:57 Siri has joined #aria 17:08:03 ack jcraig 17:08:08 Present+ 17:08:38 jcraig: Scott alluded there were certain scenarios where describedby relationship and details relationship would potentially break with existing things like title attribute 17:09:09 jcraig: there are cases where tooltip was never expose, eg visible mouseover thing that based on algorithms/accname, the description computation / aam, this string is never presented to users of AT 17:09:24 jcraig: so part of the issue here is to figure out how to ensure no parts are left behind 17:09:34 scott: wasn't originally a use case I had in mind, but could be one 17:09:47 jcraig: remember a conversation along those lines, can look up if I can find a specific scenario 17:10:10 scott: I think there's an issue about what should happen if aria description, aria describedby and title, or combo of all of them are used at the same time 17:10:18 scott: arguably this could be another use case 17:10:43 jcraig: as long as AT developers and browser developers are involved in the convo 17:10:48 here's the other issue https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/569 17:10:50 jamesn: if we stop to recommend this kind of thing, it would be in APG 17:10:59 jamesn: this almost seems like an APG example that should be built 17:11:16 pkra: APG issue has been open for a while 17:11:24 +1 to example as we encounter this tooltip issue frequently 17:11:37 pkra: one of the reasons I thought about this was hover cards like on Wikipedia, GitHub 17:11:55 melsumner has joined #aria 17:12:11 present+ 17:12:18 pkra: in some situations details would be better than describedby 17:12:43 jamesn: what should we do with the issue? 17:13:01 janefulton: would be happy to look into updating this in APG 17:13:26 jcraig: one of the things that really helps, is specific real use cases. If there's a Cisco control that wants to take advantage of this 17:13:45 janefulton: we have a number of charting components 17:13:55 janefulton: we could create a dummy version of that that shows a real world use case 17:15:50 jamesn: let's look at w3c/accname#251 17:16:44 jcraig: would like to ask to please don't add new legacy numbering ID's to the source, the names are more helpful 17:16:55 jamesn: we also move stuff around sometimes and reorder things 17:17:11 melsumner: there are comments like 'don't remove this' etc in the source 17:17:23 melsumner: appreciate having those when going through 17:17:33 Zakim, take up next please 17:17:33 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-27+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:17:54 jamesn: issue 2506 17:18:05 pkra: needed some subtle changes, is the one you looked at previously 17:18:18 jamesn: PR 2504 17:18:22 s/issue/PR 17:18:27 jamesn: does it need more reviews, scott ? 17:18:32 scott: wouldn't mind having more folks look at it 17:19:12 scott: changed it to say it's not at the HTML element but at document node, that's the gist of the change. If there's anyone wants to look at the wording please go ahead 17:19:20 jcraig: I think we could test this with a WPT test? 17:19:51 jcraig: if there's no node below that document the WPT would fail? if you compute any aspect of the properties below this hidden node that shouldn't be hidden or should be unhidden… there's probably a WPT that could be writen for this 17:20:08 jcraig: would like to see issue at Interop Accessibility repo… don't need to hold up the merge but would like to see it tested 17:20:48 jcraig: I think there's some other aspects of aria-hidden being tested… this seems like one of those things where we could add aria-hidden on HTML node and body element…  17:20:54 scott: this is just for the role mapping for the HTML eleemnt 17:20:58 s/eleemnt 17:21:05 scott: not to do with aria-hidden 17:21:32 jamesn: want to review this, jcraig ? 17:21:36 jcraig: yes please 17:21:55 jamesn: let's move on to 2503 17:22:06 jamesn: this has 3 approving reviewers already, think this can be merged 17:22:22 pkra: it lacks a prefix in the title 17:23:00 present+ 17:23:02 q+ 17:23:04 scott: just noting PR 2486 is working on the same area 17:23:32 melsumner: Scott said I could coordinate with Rahim to pull those changes in, what do you think Rahim? 17:23:54 Rahim: would defer to you, melsumner. Mine just adds a class, yours adds a node. Happy to merge into yours 17:24:15 melsumner: ok will do 17:24:33 jamesn: next is #2500 17:24:46 jamesn: we have this on the agenda, right? 17:24:50 jamesn: let's wait until then 17:24:56 Zakim, take up next please 17:24:56 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, hdv 17:24:59 q? 17:25:03 ack Ra 17:25:06 Zakim, take up next please 17:25:06 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:26:45 present+ 17:27:11 jamesn: looks like there is a new one here, jcraig , does it need reviewing? 511771 17:27:24 https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/49647 17:27:26 jcraig: yes looked at it 17:27:43 scott: this one hasn't been reviewed yet, was trying to fix whitespace but not sure what's happening 17:27:49 scott: it's for update to figure/figcaption 17:28:24 jcraig: thanks for bringing to my attention… should be straightforward if it is whitespace, let's fix offline 17:29:08 keithamus: if you click the plus on the line, you might be able to do it with that 17:29:45 [argument on commit messaging strategy] 17:30:12 jamesn: any more WPT issues? 17:30:17 Zakim, take up next please 17:30:17 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:30:25 jamesn: anyone want to propose anything? 17:30:46 q+ 17:30:49 jamesn: table with no headers has been on for a while 17:31:01 jamesn: the whitespace from computed accname, we decided not to do it right? 17:31:34 melsumner: it is assigned to me… not sure if I was there recently. I'll check on my side, we don't need a deep dive on this 17:31:37 Zakim, take up next 17:31:37 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, hdv 17:31:39 ack melsumner 17:31:39 q? 17:31:41 Zakim, take up next 17:31:41 agendum 5 -- -> [ariaNotify] avoid pestering/annoyance of notifications, either too many or too irrelevant https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2499 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:32:07 jcraig: this was one of the discussion points in the ariaNotify discussion 17:32:16 jcraig: was requested to track this in individual issus 17:32:20 s/issus/isues 17:33:14 evelynnkaplan: Alison not here today but I am happy to help contribute 17:33:45 q+ 17:33:53 jcraig: a number of these misuse scenarios are from real world examples of how ARIA live has been used 17:34:05 jamesn: question on this for those who have similar APIs in native platforms 17:34:18 q+ 17:34:21 jamesn: do you see misuse of these native API mechanisms in applications and why do you think that would be different on the web if you do not? 17:35:02 jcraig: I'll be the first to admit that ariaNotify will solve some of these misuse examples. Eg putting role=status on a timer without knowing about announcements every second 17:35:44 jcraig: that said, we've also seen a number of test case scenarios that I'd still say are potential misuse/overuse scenarios. Part of the ongoing discussion is what could change about the API that could allow the AT or user to filter out certain messages 17:35:55 the misuse I often have to deal with is marketing/upsells 17:36:09 like while the user is within the product doing their work 17:36:21 jcraig: would you like to discussi t today or some other time? 17:36:46 evelynnkaplan: I think it's a pretty meaty topic, lot to consider, especially when it comes to values for the type property 17:37:08 jamesn: ok, we should probably do a longer meeting on this? if someone wants to prep? 17:37:21 jcraig: we had one fairly recently, one of the requests in that was to create a specific issue for it 17:37:50 q- 17:38:09 evelynnkaplan: thanks. If folks have ideas here please comment in the discussion 17:38:11 ack me 17:38:42 jcraig: one of those issues that is… it feels slow going, but it is slow going because important to get it right 17:39:16 jamesn: it is an improvement of what we have today. As long as this can be extended in the future, why should we not progress this to make things better without waiting for it to be perfect]? 17:39:46 jcraig: some considerations might cause long term breakage is why we're waiting still 17:39:54 jamesn: don't think we should aim for perfection 17:39:56 jcraig: agreed 17:40:25 jcraig: maybe breakage not the right term, but we want v1 to support the best use cases and not allow for misuses that are hard to correct afterwards 17:40:39 jamesn: yes exactly, misuse scenarios ok as long as we can correct afterwards 17:41:07 jamesn: no new misuse scenarios other than a new API to create them, right? 17:41:27 jcraig: true. But there are a number of things we had to leave in in live regions that were hard or impossible to fix after 17:42:00 jcraig: we have live regions, there are ways to make them work well. And ways to make them work badly. 17:42:27 melsumner: can we learn from other host languages? 17:42:33 q+ 17:42:59 melsumner: is there ways to put in more restrictions in an iterative fashion? 17:43:18 jcraig: can think of some examples, like Web Speech APIs 17:43:48 jcraig: a number of engines shipped, and it had things like 'give me a list of speech voices you have' and it got immediately used 99% of cases for finger printing 17:44:23 ack keithamus 17:45:12 keithamus: there's a bunch of things we can do to prevent misuse, like permissions dialogs… my worry is that those things will detract from people's desire to use it and they'd go back to ARIA live regions, that are easily misused 17:45:48 keithamus: imperative APIs hard to misuse… the thing with aria-live is that it can be incidentally misused eg when frameworks get involved 17:45:58 s/hard/are harder 17:46:49 jcraig: there's a number of ways to address that… we could potentially have a timeline for deprecation of aria-live… or we can use heuristics to determine examples, eg when someone puts role=status on something that's obviously a timer, we could ignore it 17:47:13 jcraig: we can't necessarily catch all issues with aria-live, there's a number of patterns, major misuse cases, that we can try and remove once we ship a new API. Maybe even remove the negative impact of those 17:47:50 agenda? 17:48:07 keithamus: part of the original design of the ariaNotify API was the ID, the self supplied categorisation of the notification; then the user might have a preference list where they could remove particular types of notifications. We went back and ultimately removed notification ID…  17:48:23 keithamus: I feel like if we are going to spend the time to talk about limiting misuse… we should go back to some of those decisions again. 17:48:47 keithamus: the initial design did think about some of these things more 17:49:59 jcraig: everyone working on Webkit/VoiceOver etc is happy for this to forward but we have a few minor differences still, some discussion needs to happen first 17:50:36 keithamus: I don't necessarily think security and privacy are represented … would be good to have examples for misuse 17:51:07 keithamus: socialising this more so that we can get more eyes on it and find things that people could misuse it, and get it in front of using to practice using it… those are ways we can prevent catastrophes 17:51:19 question: should we discuss this at TPAC, OR do we need to implement sooner than that? 17:51:22 jcraig: great example of not how it can be misused, but how it will… is a timer 17:51:53 jcraig: if there are heuristics that we can agree on to detect misuse, and from day 1 filter those out 17:52:33 jcraig: just thinking about… if we ship v1 and our users complain, eg VoiceOver users, if some widely used site… with aria-live last time there was kind of had a hammer approach 17:52:41 jamesn: can we move discussion to the issue so we can move on? 17:52:43 jcraig: yes 17:52:45 Zakim, take up next pelase 17:52:45 I don't understand 'take up next pelase', hdv 17:52:47 Zakim, take up next please 17:52:47 agendum 6 -- -> Missing author requirement for use of tabs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2497 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:53:24 jamesn: tabs don't seem to require in the spec for a role of tabpanel 17:53:44

Authors MUST ensure that if a tab is active, a corresponding tabpanel element that represents the active tab is rendered.

17:54:15 keithamus: is 'tabpanel element' the right way to say this? seems confusing 17:54:42 scott: we do it in other places. It's obs not a tabpanel it's an element with role tabpanel 17:54:55 jamesn: do folks believe this is a valid normative requirement? 17:55:05 q+ 17:55:07 jamesn: or are there cases where it is not necessary? it doens't really do anything right? 17:55:44 scott: some recent feedback in reviewing some examples… 17:55:46 ack giacomo-petri 17:55:56 jamesn: agree it should be there but not sure of real world impact 17:56:21 giacomo-petri: I wonder… if the content below is hidden from visible view, the tablist is visible, but tab content is not rendered, isn't that a possbiility? 17:57:26 scott: use case I am trying to solve for, is someone has a tablist with tabs, which are modifiying content on the page… all examples of tab widgets that are valid use a tabpanel, at least one of them, to swap out the content based on the chosen tab. 17:58:08 Siri: when we use role=tabpanel we are associating with a label? usually? 17:58:15 q+ 17:58:16 scott: usually, not always, is part of the problem 17:58:44 scott: it could also be such that someone can infer a relationship 17:58:48 s/relationship/association 17:58:49 ack giacomo-petri 17:58:51 q+ 17:59:39 giacomo-petri: re Scott's point… with content-visiblity:auto, I am not sure the content outside the viewport is in the a11y tree. It could be there in the DOM but it is not exposed in the a11y tree. Not sure what happens if pointing at something that's not visible 17:59:41 ack me 18:00:14 jamesn: glad you were talking about prescriptive labeling, controls is kind of problematic in web components 18:01:04 scott: this wording made most sense to me, if someone has suggestions they are more than welcome to send them 18:03:31 q+ 18:03:31 q? 18:03:44 q- 18:03:58 zakim, end meeting 18:03:58 As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, pkra, scott, Francis_Storr, filippo-zorzi, jcraig, ChrisCuellar, Siri, melsumner, keithamus, Rahim, evelynnkaplan 18:04:01 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 18:04:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/04/03-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:04:10 I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:04:10 Zakim has left #aria 18:05:37 melsumner has left #aria 19:55:55 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 21:14:49 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 22:04:26 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria