16:59:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:59:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-aria-irc
16:59:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:48 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:50 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:50 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:10 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
17:00:18 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
17:00:48 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:48 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:49 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ef1f2d62-1c5d-4300-916c-b54d87c3ad98/20250327T130000/
17:00:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mrkykr7w
17:00:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-20+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues
17:00:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:00:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Investigate changing ID-based WAI-ARIA value types due to referenceTarget https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2487
17:01:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093
17:01:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Stale PR Processing
17:01:15 <smockle> present+
17:02:14 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:02:19 <aardrian> present+
17:02:35 <melsumner> present+
17:02:39 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
17:02:45 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:02:46 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:02:48 <aardrian> scribe+
17:02:54 <katez> present+
17:02:58 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:03:04 <pkra> present+
17:03:06 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:03:10 <Daniel> present+ Daniel
17:03:41 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:03:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mrkykr7w -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:09 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2499
17:04:35 <aardrian> spectranaut_ We should agenda this.
17:04:58 <aardrian> Daniel: comfortable with that.
17:05:06 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2497
17:05:18 <aardrian> spectranatu_ This seems like something we should also agenda.
17:05:27 <aardrian> scott: Agreed
17:05:44 <aardrian> jamesn: Would a really simple PR help for that agenda item?
17:05:52 <aardrian> scott: Either works.
17:06:02 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2496
17:06:10 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:06:13 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:06:16 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Also from Scott, larger conversation.
17:06:26 <aardrian> Scott: Agenda, but maybe for later this meeting.
17:06:31 <jamesn> agenda+ https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2496
17:06:34 <aardrian> jamesn: I'll aenda for this meeting.
17:06:40 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2494
17:06:43 <jamesn> agenda?
17:06:52 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Mel already made a PR, so moving on.
17:07:13 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2491
17:07:31 <aardrian> Specrtranaut_: There is already a PR for this, will discuss then.
17:07:45 <aardrian> rahim: Yes, that works, Several issues related.
17:07:54 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:07:57 <aardrian> Specrtranaut_: Assigning to Rahim.
17:08:01 <pkra> present+
17:08:04 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2487
17:08:15 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Already agendad.
17:08:27 <aardrian> spectranaut_: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/579
17:08:40 <aardrian> Is this something to talk about? We don't have a place for it yet. CSS-AAM backlog?
17:08:47 <aardrian> pkra: Sure?
17:09:20 <aardrian> pkra: We should at least document it.
17:09:35 <aardrian> jamesn: Dangerous to change behavior from what it is today, agree it should be documented.
17:09:49 <aardrian> Rahim: Assign it to me to investigate what browsers do today.
17:10:20 <aardrian> melsummer: Assign me too, please. I'd like to help document and reasons why.
17:11:10 <aardrian> jamesn: I would love to see a way to address this for keyboard users, since mouse users already often get a hover.
17:11:41 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:11:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-20+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:53 <Rahim> present+
17:11:53 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:11:55 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2498
17:11:55 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
17:11:58 <sarah> present+
17:12:02 <ChrisCuellar> present+
17:12:05 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Editorial change
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17:12:28 <aardrian> melsumner: Can we make sure it's editorial? I don't want to mess up tests.
17:12:34 <Matt_King> present+
17:12:34 <Daniel> q+
17:12:45 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Yep.
17:12:50 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2495
17:12:55 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:12:56 <Daniel> q-
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17:12:58 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Another editorial.
17:13:02 <np-at> present+
17:13:04 <aardrian> pkra: Just needs sign-off.
17:13:20 <np-at> RE line-clamp There’s also text resize behavior which should be mentioned.  Line clamp inherently increases truncation when scaling is increased… which is not obvious to many developers
17:13:22 <aardrian> jamesn: I'll review it.
17:13:30 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2492
17:13:36 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Another editorial, good to merge.
17:13:43 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2489
17:13:57 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Another editorial, good to merge?
17:14:05 <aardrian> pkra: Yes.
17:14:16 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2488
17:14:23 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Another editorial
17:14:40 <aardrian> pkra: DPUB, minor editorial.
17:15:05 <aardrian> daniel: I can review it.
17:15:18 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2486
17:15:29 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Another editorial for accName.
17:15:39 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Looks like follow-up to accName convo.
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17:16:00 <Siri> present+
17:16:03 <aardrian> Rahim: Would like Brian, Scott, Melanie to look and approve.
17:16:29 <aardrian> scott: I think there is probably a bigger discussion about the bigger issue.
17:17:13 <aardrian> scott: Around how accName is calculated (DOM nodes, accTree, etc). There are other tangents to explore.
17:17:28 <aardrian> jamesn: accName doesn't apply in this issue, right?
17:17:58 <aardrian> scott: That's the concern, it applies for general steps but also identifying what wins in conflicts and how host language factors.
17:18:26 <aardrian> scott: Look at the specs with more specific rules since it can't be called out in a general algorithm.
17:18:45 <aardrian> jamesn: And those specs point to accName for specific steps, otherwise you stay in the spec.
17:18:55 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Is there an issue for this?
17:19:07 <aardrian> melsumner: Yes, issue 250 in accName.
17:19:25 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/250
17:19:48 <aardrian> scott: I think this issue will resolve it as long as it is a more general note.
17:20:13 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2485
17:20:28 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Thank you for grammar fixes. Reviewers?
17:21:03 <aardrian> janefulton: I'll take it.
17:21:37 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2484
17:21:58 <aardrian> spectranaut_: This has a lot of reviwers.
17:22:19 <aardrian> Rahim: I recreated the work from the old PR. Thanks to Pete for taking all the time explaining the differences.
17:22:37 <aardrian> s/Pete/Keith
17:23:07 <aardrian> Rahim: Switch this to draft.
17:23:12 <aardrian> s/Pete/Keith/
17:23:42 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2483
17:23:47 <keithamus> s/Keith/keithamus
17:24:03 <aardrian> spectranaut_: This closes an issue from a few meetings ago.
17:24:35 <aardrian> pkra: Yeah, it would be good to have another set of eyes since giacomo-petri did all the work.
17:24:50 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:24:53 <aardrian> pkra: This would close another issue to add a term for accessibility ancestor.
17:25:08 <aardrian> melsumner: I'll review.
17:25:23 <aardrian> pkra: The trouble is a scoping statement to allow groups if they contain menu items.
17:25:38 <np-at> I'd be interested
17:25:40 <aardrian> pkra: You don't want to allow nested groups with menu items also without a menu somewhere.
17:26:07 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: You have to check both directions.
17:26:29 <aardrian> scott: Add me as a reviewer.
17:26:47 <aardrian> Matt_King: Add me as a reviewer.
17:27:08 <scott> actually, since this is becoming a bit of a party -  i probably don't need to review anymore
17:27:18 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:27:18 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:28:22 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Can we write tests for parent/child items and intervening groups?
17:28:35 <aardrian> aardrian: This is the current agenda item (WPT)
17:29:14 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: Yes, but there are some roles that complicate it (paraphrased).
17:29:40 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:29:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:29:56 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2427
17:30:13 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Discussed last week, removing label. Can someone add a summary?
17:30:20 <aardrian> jamesn: I sent it to you.
17:30:43 <aardrian> spectranaut_: I'll check it and paste it.
17:30:55 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:30:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Investigate changing ID-based WAI-ARIA value types due to referenceTarget https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2487 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:31:08 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2487
17:31:36 <aardrian> spectranaut_: This is editorial?
17:32:03 <aardrian> Rahim: This addition to HTML spec allows an ID association that crosses shadow root boundaries.
17:32:13 <aardrian> Rahim: The HTML spec is not formalizing the ID association.
17:32:23 <jcraig> present+
17:32:27 <aardrian> Rahim: So with ARIA attributes, it is an element reference.
17:32:49 <aardrian> Rahim: With multiple IDREFs, its a "set of element references."
17:33:07 <aardrian> Rahim: So is this more than editorial since it thinks about the types of attributes an ARIA attribute can take.
17:33:26 <aardrian> Rahim: Thinking if ARIA should update accordingly now that HTML is add reference target.
17:33:32 <aardrian> Rahim: Perhaps it is just editorial.
17:34:15 <aardrian> spectranaut_: I think it's editorial, but since HTML spec changes haven't landed maybe we should un-agenda this for now. I'll add myself to help track it.
17:34:30 <aardrian> Rahim: Alice Boxhall mentioned there might be an impact on the AAMs as well.
17:34:44 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Yep, part of why I want to track this.
17:35:07 <aardrian> Matt_King: Does this have impacts on ARIA and it being host language agnostic?
17:35:07 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:35:32 <aardrian> Rahim: Good reminder ARIA needs to be host language independent, which is what spectranaut_ was referncing.
17:36:07 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Now there may be changes, like if aria-activedescendant would point to shadow root not versus the node deeper in the Shadow DOM.
17:36:47 <aardrian> aardrian: Next time -- aria-controls!
17:36:55 <aardrian> aardrian: For minuting!
17:37:38 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:37:38 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:51 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093
17:38:19 <aardrian> spectranaut_: There's been an update from keithamus
17:38:31 <aardrian> keithamus: Looking at deprecating the one L variant.
17:38:48 <aardrian> keithamus: Looking to see how it's being used in conjunction with misspelled and spelled variant.
17:39:04 <aardrian> keithamus: We'll continue to track deprecation and remove it in Chrome.
17:39:18 <aardrian> spectranaut_: No objections.
17:39:23 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:39:23 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Stale PR Processing -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:40:15 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Does anyone have a PR they have open they want us to look at and remind us to review? That's the point of this agenda item.
17:40:24 <aardrian> spectranaut_: We have 86 open PRs.
17:40:32 <aardrian> Rahim: I have one.
17:41:30 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2199
17:41:59 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Oh, you responded to my questions, Thank you, I will review today.
17:42:35 <aardrian> Rahim: Another.
17:42:36 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2420
17:43:13 <aardrian> jamesn: I'll look at it. Right now.
17:43:38 <aardrian> Rahim: Yeah, ok, one more.
17:44:07 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:44:15 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2419
17:44:29 <aardrian> Rahim: Thank you melsumner and scott for  helping.
17:44:45 <aardrian> > spectranaut_: Has three other requested reviewers.
17:45:34 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:45:34 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2496 -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:45:51 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:45:54 <aardrian> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2496
17:46:11 <aardrian> spectranaut_: CSS is coming up with stuff and we need to keep an eye on it?
17:46:25 <aardrian> scott: Yeah, two new significant features.
17:46:59 <aardrian> scott: One is CSS carousels. Which we discussed a bit at TPAC for how things might be exposed, how to map the elements created by CSS.
17:47:09 <aardrian> scott: But can't recall where it came back to group for discussion.
17:47:18 <aardrian> scott: We don't have a CSS-AAM.
17:47:33 <aardrian> scott: But there appears to be no rep from ARIA acting as a point person.
17:47:56 <aardrian> scott: The CSS spec is silent on how they should be mapped, it at all. But there is no CSS-AAM to do it.
17:48:25 <aardrian> scott: We need someone on point to bring consensus from ARIAWG. It can't be me; I don't represent everyone here or know all the sutff.
17:48:49 <aardrian> scott: With CSSWG moving away from visual styles to implementing functionality, we need to stay on this.
17:48:57 <aardrian> melsumner: Can we ask them to not?
17:49:15 <ChrisCuellar> q+
17:49:31 <aardrian> spectranaut_: It would be great is someone in the group could do this. Any takers?
17:49:54 <aardrian> spectranaut_: Is there some way this could be fixed by a process that the CSSWG uses to get accessibility review at multiple stages?
17:50:10 <spectranaut_> ack ChrisCuellar
17:50:37 <aardrian> chrisCuellar: I was going to suggest a process, but maybe an earlier review than what they have now?
17:50:45 <Daniel> q+
17:50:53 <aardrian> spectranaut_: There's the wide review before the spec is...
17:50:58 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:51:33 <aardrian> Daniel: Ideally after the spec is first WD to CR, there should be a wide review process across 5 groups. The accessibility review is from APWG.
17:51:37 <scott> q+
17:51:52 <Daniel> https://www.w3.org/2025/01/aria-charter#coordination
17:51:53 <aardrian> Daniel: The idea is that someone finds specific issues and can leave comments.
17:52:24 <spectranaut_> ack scott
17:52:56 <aardrian> scott: I was aware, and they are in some of the TAG reviews. But I was hoping someone in this group could do that work before it gets to review step.
17:52:58 <melsumner> q+
17:53:02 <jamesn> q+
17:53:23 <aardrian> scott: Early engagement could catch some. There's no interoperable way for mappings to be made outside of Chrome.
17:53:35 <pkra> q+
17:53:56 <aardrian> scott: Chrome dev team released a blog post of oddly created patterns and now we're just seeing reaction versus having caught it sooner.
17:53:58 <spectranaut_> ack melsumner
17:54:23 <aardrian> melsumner: I have an accessibility review process for products that work, that's like what Scott is describing.
17:55:02 <aardrian> melsumner: My process: when an idea first comes out, the PM must look at the accessibility policy to ensure they are in scope.
17:55:16 <aardrian> Then work has to look through the requirements to ensure they mathc.
17:55:34 <aardrian> melsumner: Then two rounds of review before release, with agreements to fix.
17:56:00 <aardrian> melsumner: The CSSWG needs to have acknowledgment that everything they make is accessible.
17:56:05 <keithamus> q+
17:56:12 <Rahim> q+
17:56:16 <aardrian> melsumner: But if someone has the bandwidth to join, great.
17:56:18 <pkra> q-
17:56:26 <jamesn> ack me
17:56:31 <aardrian> s/Then work has/melsumner: Then work has
17:56:33 <Rahim> q-
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17:56:47 <sarah> should we have a deep dive on the carousel stuff?
17:57:07 <aardrian> jamesn: We need something to happen. It seems to go to last minute before accessibility review, and then they write documents on how _not_ to use it.
17:57:14 <aardrian> jamesn: Which people don't read anyway.
17:57:32 <aardrian> jamesn: The only way that seems feasible is to have accessibility people embedded in the WG.
17:57:38 <spectranaut_> q?
17:58:08 <aardrian> keithamus: I am on CSSWG, but didn't see this come up. I'll endeavor to bring the accessibility point of view to the WG.
17:58:23 <aardrian> jamesn: The AI conclusion is that you have volunteered, keithamus.
17:58:45 <aardrian> spectranaut_: I see sarah asked to do a deep dive on this; can you make an issue?
17:59:00 <jamesn> ack keithamus
17:59:12 <aardrian> scott: While it's shipped in one browser, it's fixable because it's not in other browsers.
17:59:25 <aardrian> keithamus: No signals from other browsers for interest.
17:59:35 <aardrian> Matt_King: I like the idea of a deep dive.
17:59:47 <aardrian> zakim, end meeeting
17:59:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end meeeting', aardrian
17:59:52 <aardrian> zakim, end meeting
17:59:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been smockle, aardrian, melsumner, katez, pkra, filippo-zorzi, Daniel, giacomo-petri, Rahim, sarah, ChrisCuellar, Matt_King, np-at, Siri,
17:59:55 <Zakim> ... keithamus, jcraig
17:59:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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18:01:08 <aardrian> s/spectranatu_/spectranaut_
18:01:35 <aardrian> s/spectranaut_ We/spectranaut_: We
18:02:31 <aardrian> s/Is this something to talk about?/spectranaut: Is this something to talk about?
18:02:50 <aardrian> s/spectranaut: Is this something to talk about?/spectranaut_: Is this something to talk about?
18:03:33 <aardrian> s/> spectranaut_: Has three/spectranaut_: Has three
18:03:55 <aardrian> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/27-aria-minutes.html aardrian
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