17:01:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
17:01:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-aria-at-irc
17:01:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:43 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:02:10 <jugglinmike> Topic: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
17:02:27 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:02:30 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:02:40 <jugglinmike> present+ mmoss
17:02:48 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
17:02:49 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
17:02:52 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
17:02:58 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
17:02:59 <Isa> Isa has joined #aria-at
17:03:02 <jugglinmike> present+ Isa
17:03:07 <jugglinmike> present+ james
17:03:09 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
17:03:17 <Matt_King> present+
17:03:18 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:03:21 <Joe_Humbert> present+
17:03:40 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:03:42 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/March-26%2C-2025-Agenda
17:03:48 <Carmen> Carmen has joined #aria-at
17:04:18 <jugglinmike>  present+ Carmen
17:04:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting Thursday April 3
17:04:41 <jugglinmike> Topic: Next Community Group Meeting: Wednesday April 9
17:04:54 <jugglinmike> s/Topic/Matt_King/
17:04:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday April 14
17:05:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have more on today's agenda than we can probably cover during this meeting
17:07:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for changes?
17:07:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with what we've got planned
17:07:57 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:08:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The top-level status of what's in each phase hasn't really changed in the past week
17:08:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was really trying to get the "vertical temperature slider" over the line so we could have it in the test queue for today's meeting, but I made a mistake which delayed that
17:08:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I shared some feedback on the test plan
17:09:23 <jugglinmike> Isa: I saw those. I've been waiting for the build so I could preview the test plan
17:09:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think it will be ready to go if all the changes that I made look good to you
17:09:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wanted to look at it again also in the actual "preview" mode to make sure that I didn't make any other mistakes
17:09:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This could end up available for testing as soon as today
17:10:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...but it isn't in the test queue right now
17:10:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we should decide now who we will assign, assuming we can land it in the test queue today
17:10:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: because it would be really good to make progress on that before our next meeting on April 9
17:11:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Once we resolve conflicts on stuff that's in the queue right now, the queue will be empty. That must mean that there are a bunch of people who will have time in the next few weeks
17:11:37 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I would be happy to work on the "vertical temperature slider"
17:12:03 <jugglinmike> mmoss: It could be VoiceOver or NVDA. (Hopefully JAWS, as well, by the end of this week)
17:12:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great! Is anyone else available?
17:12:41 <jugglinmike> dean: I am. I prefer VoiceOver, but I can do NVDA because I have Parallels
17:12:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, we can assign NVDA to mmoss and VoiceOver to dean
17:13:08 <jugglinmike> Isa: I can do JAWS
17:13:25 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can do whatever I need to do
17:14:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: JAWS has been misbehaving on my system
17:15:26 <jugglinmike> Isa: Luke is not available for testing
17:16:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have Joe_Humbert for JAWS, dean for VoiceOver, and mmoss for NVDA
17:16:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's try to get this one over the line and into the queue today, Isa
17:16:32 <jugglinmike> Isa: Okay, I will review it
17:16:50 <jugglinmike> Topic: Radio group with active descendant
17:17:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wanted to celebrate because this is all done! Thank you, everybody
17:17:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It has zero open issues
17:17:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Pretty soon, the next "radio group" plan will be there
17:17:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks to everyone who helped get this over the line
17:17:47 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing Radio group with roving tab index
17:18:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have some conflicts. I put a link to the conflicts in the agenda
17:18:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isa raised an issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1221
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17:18:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a situation where the conflicts are because Joe_Humbert and Isa got different AT responses on three tests
17:18:57 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Most of the conflicts are about the "set size" and "set position"
17:19:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I noticed when I was testing, and I re-tested three or four times just to be certain that I wasn't making a mistake... So I don't know what's going on with that
17:19:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The first thing to double-check is that you are both using the same build
17:20:10 <jugglinmike> Isa: There has been an update since I ran that test plan, but I still get the same results. It doesn't speak the position for me
17:20:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert is using the demo, so it's always with the default settings
17:20:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I installed and immediately started testing. I assumed that this would produce the default settings
17:20:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It is the default unless you make modifications during the "setup" wizard
17:21:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you didn't change anything other than speech rate there, then you have the defaults
17:21:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I didn't even change the speech rate
17:21:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isa are you using the "Insert Z" method?
17:21:57 <jugglinmike> Isa: Yes. I haven't changed anything because I use NVDA by default
17:22:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you do the testing--you press "insert space" followed by "z", and then JAWS says "default user alternate directory mode"
17:22:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do you use that method to ensure that the defaults are all in place?
17:22:40 <jugglinmike> Isa: Yes. I only speed it up a bit
17:22:58 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: With my output, it's also announcing the group and group label. That information isn't included in Isa's output
17:23:12 <jugglinmike> Isa: Right, it doesn't announce that for me. I tested again last night
17:23:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This seems like an usual situation. I think Isa is right--we need a third person
17:23:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It could be me, but I don't know when I will be available. I still have to install that latest version in addition to running the test itself
17:24:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...but we need a tiebreaker, and I don't think we have anybody else on the call right now who could be a tiebreaker
17:24:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It will be great to get more JAWS testers
17:24:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I predict that I will get a third, unique set of AT responses
17:24:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is going to be kind of stuck until I (or someone else) can run the test
17:24:56 <jugglinmike> s/test/test plan/
17:25:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I have been going through and checking and hitting "alt delete" and making sure it is in the right cursor mode
17:25:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, pressing "alt delete" won't impact the results
17:25:57 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Should I go through and try to reset the defaults just to make sure there is nothing wonky in the way it is freshly installed?
17:26:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I suppose you could do that. To me, though, what's interesting is that your results make it appear that JAWS has fixed some stuff. Compared to Isa's results, you got more passes
17:27:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So I'm inclined to believe Joe_Humbert's results are more authentic than Isa's
17:27:44 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I just re-did one of the test. When you run one of them, it puts focus on a radio button, and it goes into forms mode. So I have to leave forms mode to run the test
17:27:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Correct
17:28:21 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm just leaving forms mode by hitting "escape". Could it be because I'm using the single-key shortcut command to change modes? If I exit forms mode in a different mode, could that impact anything?
17:28:33 <jugglinmike> Isa: I'm just hitting "escape" as well
17:28:49 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Okay, nevermind, then. If we're both doing the same thing, then that's not it
17:28:57 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Isa, what operating system are you running?
17:29:00 <jugglinmike> Isa: Windows 11
17:29:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I am using Windows 10
17:29:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I have Windows 11 in a virtual machine. I could test there to see if I get different results
17:29:57 <jugglinmike> james: I don't have the latest version of JAWS
17:30:33 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I hope it's not because I'm using an unregistered version. It would be very, very weird if the licensed version behaves differently than the unlicensed version
17:30:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Agreed
17:30:50 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can try this on Windows 11 in a virtual machine
17:31:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It would be weird if that's the problem, but I think it's worth doing
17:31:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If that's the explanation, then it could mean that Windows 10 and 11 have a difference that JAWS hasn't accounted for. Perhaps even that Windows has regressed...
17:31:48 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing Media Seek Slider
17:31:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This should be a lot easier to result
17:32:01 <jugglinmike> s/result/resolve/
17:32:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a ton of conflicts, but we have the same AT responses, so this is just about how testers are interpreting the AT responses
17:32:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isa raised an issue https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1215
17:32:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The conflicts are summarized here: https://aria-at.w3.org/test-queue/375/conflicts
17:32:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You have differences in almost every test
17:33:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In test number one: you both reported the same output
17:33:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isa put "pass" and Joe_Humbert put "fail"
17:34:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I misread the "not" in the assertion. I need to pay more attention now that we have negative assertions!
17:36:48 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll go through and correct my verdicts accordingly
17:37:08 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 1216 - How to handle failures that invalidate assertions
17:37:16 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1216
17:38:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are situations were--and we previously saw this with VoiceOver--where you press a key to move to a certain button, and it navigated to the wrong button
17:38:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Here, NVDA just totally skipped over the slider
17:38:31 <jugglinmike> james: It doesn't consider a slider to be a form control
17:39:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Some of the subsequent assertions might spuriously pass--the role might be correct, for instance, but only coincidentally
17:39:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have a good way in our testing form to record the fact that the screen reader just did something unexpected
17:39:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Essentially, this kind of behavior really blocks testing
17:40:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We do have a checkbox for what happens when you get no output at all
17:40:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm starting to think that we may need something similar for this. I made a specific proposal along these lines
17:41:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The proposal is in an issue in the app repository--issue 1352: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at-app/issues/1352
17:44:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: [reviews the proposal]
17:44:21 <jugglinmike> james: Where would the control be to choose the invalidation of the assertions?
17:44:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think it would be directly after the output box and directly before the assertions
17:44:46 <jugglinmike> james: Make sense to me
17:45:11 <jugglinmike> Isa: It will be a set of radio buttons as well?
17:45:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think it would a "yes" or "no". It could not be a check box
17:46:01 <jugglinmike> james: this is very similar to the "no output" control. I think it should be a check box
17:46:50 <jugglinmike> james: The typical argument for radio buttons in this case is to guard against people failing to provide input. But in this context, that risk isn't meaningful
17:47:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could say, for instance, "the response to 'f' created conditions that invalidated the assertions"
17:47:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll edit this proposal
17:48:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: howard-e and jugglinmike, I think this will create a much more accurate report to say that the assertions were untestable
17:48:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What we've previously done in these scenarios is a problem
17:48:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I almost want to say that completing the test for this command with NVDA, we can't record accurate results unless we make this change to the app
17:48:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could agree to fail everything and record a negative side-effect as a temporary solution, but then I think we might want to come back to this
17:49:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we agree to do that in this circumstance?
17:49:37 <jugglinmike> james: Yeah, I think that works--until this new feature is implemented.
17:50:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The problem is that it creates a non-actionable signal for NVAccess. By failing the assertions, we are saying that there is a bug present which isn't there
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17:51:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You could hypothesize that the intended behavior is correct, but that is a stretch for the tester
17:51:20 <jugglinmike> james: Once this new feature is implemented (to invalidate assertions), how will that impact the support level?
17:51:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My proposal addresses that. Because those assertions are marked as "untestable", they wouldn't be counted in the denominator of the assertions. But there IS an assertion in there which would fail
17:52:29 <jugglinmike> james: Okay
17:52:52 <jugglinmike> james: Separately, we are asserting that NVDA should consider a slider to be a form control. We're only doing that because other screen readers do
17:53:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It treats a "range" input as a form control
17:53:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: but not an ARIA slider
17:53:24 <jugglinmike> james: Oh, okay. That makes sense to me
17:54:53 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: To be clear: this is not a state that the automation system could interpret on its own
17:55:10 <jugglinmike> Topic: Media seek slider, revisited
17:56:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Oh, never mind. I misread the assertion again. I really have to read these negative assertions closely
17:56:53 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was able to install JAWS on Windows 11 in a virtual machine...
17:56:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That was fast!
17:57:23 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: ...and I get the same AT responses that I originally reported for JAWS on Windows 10
18:00:34 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:00:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, mmoss, Joe_Humbert, howard-e, dean, Isa, james, Matt_King, Carmen
18:00:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:00:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
18:00:47 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
18:00:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items