10:20:04 RRSAgent has joined #ABpurpose 10:20:08 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-irc 10:20:08 RRSAgent, do not leave 10:20:09 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 10:20:09 RRSAgent, make logs public 10:20:11 Meeting: Revisit the purpose of the AB 10:20:11 Chair: An Qi (Angel) Li, Wendy Reid 10:20:11 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2025/issues/16 10:20:11 Zakim has joined #ABpurpose 10:20:12 Zakim, clear agenda 10:20:12 agenda cleared 10:20:12 Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe 10:20:13 agendum 1 added 10:20:13 Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy 10:20:14 agendum 2 added 10:20:14 Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session 10:20:14 agendum 3 added 10:20:14 Zakim, agenda+ Discussion 10:20:15 agendum 4 added 10:20:15 Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues 10:20:15 agendum 5 added 10:20:16 Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting 10:20:17 agendum 6 added 10:20:17 breakout-bot has left #ABpurpose 10:27:17 tidoust has joined #ABpurpose 13:21:01 tantek has joined #ABpurpose 13:41:46 cwilso has joined #ABpurpose 13:47:41 angel has joined #ABpurpose 13:53:10 tantek has joined #ABpurpose 13:56:59 Topic: Revisit the purpose of the AB 13:57:31 zakim, this is Revisit the purpose of the AB 13:57:31 got it, angel 13:57:49 agenda+ AB to give a brief intro of their current work list 13:57:57 zakim, agenda? 13:57:57 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 13:57:58 1. Pick a scribe [from breakout-bot] 13:57:58 2. Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy [from breakout-bot] 13:57:58 3. Goal of this session [from breakout-bot] 13:57:58 4. Discussion [from breakout-bot] 13:57:58 5. Next steps / where discussion continues [from breakout-bot] 13:57:59 6. Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting [from breakout-bot] 13:57:59 7. AB to give a brief intro of their current work list [from angel] 13:58:22 zakim, clean agenda 13:58:22 I don't understand 'clean agenda', angel 13:58:26 zakim, clear agenda 13:58:26 agenda cleared 13:58:41 agenda+ AB to give a brief intro of their current work list 13:58:42 wendyreid has joined #ABpurpose 13:58:53 agnda+Open discussion about AB purpose 13:58:57 present+ 13:58:59 agenda+ Open discussion about AB purpose 13:59:13 agenda+ Wrap up 13:59:24 present+ 14:02:32 xueyuan has joined #ABpurpose 14:03:03 AvneeshSingh has joined #abpurpose 14:03:03 koalie has joined #abpurpose 14:03:03 present+ Coralie 14:03:05 present+ 14:03:23 present+ Coralie 14:03:35 scribenick: koalie 14:03:35 RRSagent, make minutes 14:03:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html koalie 14:03:45 fantasai has joined #ABpurpose 14:03:45 cpn has joined #ABpurpose 14:03:49 chair: Angel_Li 14:03:49 Christineg has joined #ABpurpose 14:04:43 Prior discussion on this topic -> https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/248 14:05:21 amy has joined #ABpurpose 14:05:26 present: Wendy_Reid, Angel_Li, Chris_Wilson, Christine_Gefaell, Aveneesh_Singh, Elika_Etemad, Alan_Stearns, Xueyuan_Jia, Amy-van-der-Hiel, Chris_Wilson 14:05:40 Angel: Welcome all, this meeting is under the code of conduct 14:05:49 ... Wendy my co-chair will introduce the AB as starter 14:05:53 ... then we'll discuss 14:05:54 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1J6cOEb3SnLLu9D5vW2u3r0q44CQoy1nGyyBFnA7nzPc/edit#slide=id.g3433c229b0d_0_49 14:06:52 wendyreid: AB is an 11-seat body, elected members by the AC 14:07:01 ... 2-year terms, staggered 14:07:13 ... participate as individuals 14:07:19 ... distinct from BoD 14:07:26 ... no decision-making 14:07:34 ... operate transparently 14:07:42 ... AB described in the process document 14:07:52 The Advisory Board provides ongoing guidance to the Team on issues of strategy, management, legal matters, process, and conflict resolution. The Advisory Board also serves the Members by tracking issues raised between Advisory Committee meetings, soliciting Member comments on such issues, and proposing actions to resolve these issues. 14:07:57 https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#AB 14:08:21 wendyreid: we want to talk about this because this description hasn't changed since process 2005 14:08:22 nigel has joined #ABpurpose 14:08:31 present+ Nigel_Megitt_BBC 14:08:47 ... scope of the AB include being a part of W3C Councils 14:08:55 present+ 14:09:02 ... we also work on the Vision document, process and code of conduct 14:09:14 ... we also choose our own yearly priorities 14:09:25 ... we connect members and team 14:09:39 ... [being on the AB] 14:09:44 ... 4-6 hours per week 14:09:49 ... we work in English 14:10:01 ... non-native speakers probably need more time 14:10:10 ... we have twice monthly conference calls for one hour 14:10:31 ... 3 or 4 times a year we hold a 3-day f2f meeting and we rotate locations; these are hybrid 14:10:41 ... [2025 priorities] 14:10:52 ... [Wendy reads https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/2025_Priorities ] 14:11:07 present+ Song_Xu 14:12:10 ... [working with the W3C community] 14:13:06 ==== 14:13:16 wendyreid: what we want to focus on for this session 14:13:26 How would you expect the AB to play their role in W3C community? 14:13:26 Is there anything in the AB's role that should be changed? 14:13:26 What are the unique values the AB can have for the community? 14:13:26 What tasks would you like the AB to take up, if AB has not yet? 14:13:26 How would you expect the AB to collaborate with other elected W3C groups, such as TAG and the Board? 14:13:29 Any other suggestions for the AB role/work scope? 14:13:59 q? 14:14:06 ==== 14:14:14 topic: discussion 14:14:32 q? 14:14:39 wendyreid: thanks Angel who put together this presentation for me to present 14:16:18 alan_stearns: thanks for the improved communications I've seen about the AB deliberations 14:16:29 ... posting what you're going to talk about and the summary 14:16:34 ... this is really helpful 14:17:03 ... I wonder if some of the things you have discussed and wondered what the AC things, if there should be more specific things stirredon the ac list 14:17:18 ... of if you are trying to push discussion on GH instead of the mailing list 14:17:28 wendyreid: what we want is more feedback, more input 14:17:34 ... we can only make recommendations, 14:17:43 ... we can make far better ones when we know where people are at 14:17:45 +100% 14:17:57 wendyreid: we can't be speaking for everyone 14:18:03 ... we should do more to solicit the AC 14:18:17 ... especially on some big topics we are wrestling with 14:18:26 Q+ 14:18:27 ... we want opipnions 14:18:36 ... that make discussion more useful 14:18:46 ... there's good engagement in email so long as people are respectful 14:18:54 ... we see some engagement on GH but not a ton 14:19:01 ... is it worth doing in both venues? 14:19:07 ack AvneeshSingh 14:19:09 ... or should we push in more direction? 14:19:11 ack av 14:19:29 AvneeshSingh: it's about preferences. 14:19:42 ... in email I gave links to GH recently to offer a choice 14:19:50 q+ to mention about advice 14:19:53 ... express your preference 14:20:02 Alan_Stearns: Mine is GH issues, personally 14:20:04 present+ 14:20:08 ... I'm usually a lurker 14:20:28 ... not sure how you can change how you work to elicit more feedback from me due to my lurking tendency 14:20:59 ... Also, we've elected the AB to advise, represent us. I vote for people whose opinions I value 14:21:02 ... I defer 14:21:09 ... have your opinions 14:21:15 ... state your opinions 14:21:20 ... don't waffle on 14:21:22 ack nigel 14:21:22 nigel, you wanted to mention about advice 14:21:23 s/I defer/I often defer to them/ 14:21:28 ... maybe you won't get the feedback you want 14:21:39 s/you want/you want, because the feedback was that you got elected/ 14:21:52 present+ Song, Avneesh, Alan_Stearns, Xueyuan, Nigel_Megitt, fantasai, Christine, Ralph, Coralie, Angel, Wendy 14:21:54 nigel: how does the AB decide what it wants to provide advice on? 14:22:11 present+ Chris_Wilson 14:22:30 ... how does one put things on the list of AB to consider? 14:22:34 astearns has joined #abpurpose 14:22:52 ... technical questions should go to TAG 14:23:08 ... which means the AB should be considering more matters of what makes a std org run well 14:23:08 q+ to try and answer Nigel 14:23:11 ... and be useful 14:23:13 ...that sort of things 14:23:16 ... internal workin 14:23:22 s/kin/king/ 14:23:33 ... that sort of things. External as well in some fashion 14:23:40 ... I've seen the 3 Is 14:23:43 ... that interests me 14:23:54 ... how did this get there? AB priority 14:24:00 ... as people must have asked in the past 14:24:24 caribou has joined #ABpurpose 14:24:38 ... if there are edge cases regarding 3Is, the AB might be a good body to adjudicate 14:24:41 ... instead of the TAG 14:24:50 ack wendyreid 14:24:50 wendyreid, you wanted to try and answer Nigel 14:25:01 ... I'm curious how the things get on the list of things for the AB to consider 14:25:11 wendyreid: when we have the priorities discussion 14:25:20 ... it's been talking about problems that we see 14:25:30 ... problems that affect us 14:25:39 ... as some of us are in groups, are chairs 14:25:52 ... the "squishy" bits of the technical work 14:26:02 ... agree, it should not go to the TAG 14:26:07 ... like the 3Is 14:26:23 ... that has tech implications but also community and process, so that's where we come in to help 14:26:30 ... our priorities come from that 14:26:46 q+ 14:27:04 ... hence focus in the last year on "working with the TAG" 14:27:16 ack fantasai 14:27:47 fantasai: AB Members come to the AB with an idea or project they want to work on, or issues they want to resolve 14:27:59 ... another way is when the Team brings topics they want AB advice on 14:28:10 ... third way is when the AC or community ask us to work on things 14:28:34 qq+ 14:28:36 +1 Elika 14:28:36 q- 14:28:37 q+ 14:29:17 fantasai: I encourage the team members to come to us for anything they think we might help with 14:29:23 ... without the CEO approval 14:29:33 ack angel 14:29:47 s/without the CEO approval/not wait for the CEO to bring it on their behalf/ 14:29:53 ack amy 14:30:03 amy: I have a recollection of Seth at the first AB f2f he attended 14:30:14 ... asking what the hoped the AB might work on 14:30:22 ... including relevance of W3C and the technical future 14:30:25 q+ to come back to fantasai - is the AB there to represent AC to the Team, or to advise the wider community? 14:30:29 ... regarding the team asking advice 14:30:43 ... we've had great experience and fruitful discussions 14:30:56 ... e.g., Branding TF, meetings, external communications 14:31:04 ... the Team does ask the AB 14:31:12 ... we work to help address that 14:31:46 angel: I want to continue the discussion but before that, if we look at the @@ of the AB 14:31:54 ... there are pieces of work the AB manages 14:31:58 ... e.g., process document 14:32:08 ... it's done collaboratively through CGs 14:32:12 s/@@/Process description/ 14:32:25 ... in a way, these CGs are working like a sub-committee of the AB with broader participation 14:32:32 ... if we could form a stable mechanism 14:32:40 song has joined #abpurpose 14:32:41 ... we could get formalised relationships 14:32:44 ... it would be great 14:32:48 ... also for the technical part 14:32:59 ... I recently had a conversation with someone from another std org 14:33:06 ... they decided to dive all in in AI area 14:33:15 ... their membership formed a technical advisory group 14:33:23 ... to come up with technical roadmaps 14:33:33 ... I don't thing W3C has that 14:33:43 s/... also for the/angel: also for the/ 14:33:52 ... I wonder, and it doesn't have to be the AB alone 14:33:59 michaelchampion has joined #ABpurpose 14:34:04 ... but how can the W3C TEam look at the emerging tech? 14:34:10 ack nigel 14:34:10 nigel, you wanted to come back to fantasai - is the AB there to represent AC to the Team, or to advise the wider community? 14:34:29 q+ to mention representing AC to Team also 14:34:30 nigel: the AB seems to be doing multiple things 14:34:41 ... communication roles with different parties 14:34:55 q+ 14:34:55 ... I noticed the AB seems to be treated as an representative groups from the AC 14:35:11 ... including to the Team 14:35:27 ... one of the general issue with the AC is it's hard to engage with the AC 14:35:30 forming an advisory group on a particular technical topic is a good idea, but probably separate from our current AB. We’d want to form a group on a particular topic to select experts in that topic 14:35:36 ... and answers are not straightforward 14:35:43 ... that's one role I see for the AB 14:35:54 ... also a wider role to guide on things of interest 14:36:02 ... I'm not clear how that part works 14:36:13 ... who is the AB for is a useful question 14:36:18 qq+ 14:36:27 ... efforts to bridge the community and the Team, from the questions on the slide 14:36:43 ... maybe it needs to be clearer on what to expect 14:36:43 ack amy 14:36:43 amy, you wanted to react to nigel 14:37:02 +1 to astearns about separate from our current AB, the AB fan faciliate the forming of such tech advisory group 14:37:09 fantasai: we think of the AB as an executive committee of the AC 14:37:18 ... but that's not the only thing we do 14:37:30 ... the AB advocates for the effectiveness of W3C as an org 14:37:36 ... it's what ties all the things that we do 14:37:37 +1 Elika. :) 14:37:55 fantasai: through Process, code, guidelines, etc. 14:38:11 ... we do a lot of different things 14:38:32 present+ carine_Bournez 14:38:43 s/through/through advising Team, developing/ 14:38:48 nigel: if you're the executive committee of the AC, I think this is defined 14:38:58 ... the mechanism for consulting back with the AC is very important 14:39:04 ... otherwise you can't represent them 14:39:21 fantasai: there is room for improvement 14:39:28 ... but we have conversations 14:39:36 ... in spaces with the AC can participate 14:39:43 ... lot of porosity 14:39:55 ... summarising meetings to the AC, helps do that at a higher level 14:40:03 ... we could make better use of surveys 14:40:11 ... we have an election cycle every year 14:40:15 ... it's somewhat frequent 14:40:26 ack amy 14:40:26 amy, you wanted to mention representing AC to Team also 14:40:27 I don't quite agree with the characterization that the AB's role is to "bridge W3C community and the Team". Team and AC are very connected. It would be negative if the AB saw itself as in between AC and Team. 14:40:33 ... another dynamic is election of individuals for a specific project 14:40:40 ack fantasai 14:41:20 I'm hearing "represent" AC but to me, this seems unclear. The role in the Process is "The Advisory Board also serves the Members by tracking issues raised between Advisory Committee meetings, soliciting Member comments on such issues, and proposing actions to resolve these issues." 14:41:22 s/for a specific project/by AC memers, as Alan mentioned, to do the work so they don't have to/ 14:41:29 Amy: In addition I heard "represent" 14:41:33 ... it seems unclear 14:41:48 ... process says "serve the members" 14:41:55 ... track things, get comments, etc. 14:42:05 ... some of the way I hear some of these is slightly off center 14:42:17 ... team and AC are quite connected already 14:42:20 ack wendyreid 14:42:23 ... if it's in addition that's fine 14:42:29 ... othewise I wante to push back 14:42:31 ack wem 14:42:34 q+ 14:42:46 wendyreid: this is why it's important to have this discussion 14:42:49 ... things have changed 14:43:07 s/a lot of different things/a lot of different things, but generally fits under that mission. By contrast, TAG's mission is to advocate for integrity of the technical architecture of the Web./ 14:43:09 ... the AB definition in the process hasn't changed 14:43:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html fantasai 14:43:38 ... but things changed and our roles have changed 14:43:49 ... I don't see ourselves as an executive committy of the AC 14:43:54 ... I wasn't an AC rep 14:43:57 ... I'm a chair 14:44:05 ... our connection to the AC is incredibly important 14:44:27 ... but I think our proper role is to represent the community at large 14:44:30 +1 to representing community at large, not just AC 14:44:50 ... by being good stewards of the community we get the support of the AC who elect us 14:44:58 ... I don't see us as arbiter of the AC 14:45:08 the role of the Team is "The Team provides technical leadership about Web technologies, organizes and manages W3C activities to reach goals within practical constraints (such as resources available), and communicates with the Members and the public about the Web and W3C technologies." https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#Team 14:45:09 ... it's a greatly integrated ecosystemm with interdependencies 14:45:19 ... we have so much integration with the Team 14:45:41 ack astearns 14:46:19 astearns: I want to pushback a bit on the assertion that the Team is connected to the AC 14:46:27 thank you Alan, i hear you on this and i think it should be improved! 14:46:33 ... I see much more communications from the AB than from the Team 14:46:57 q+ 14:47:02 ack nigel 14:47:17 nigel: I want to ask a provocative question 14:47:32 ... if the AB disappeared, what would we lose? 14:47:41 process maintenance? 14:49:23 q+ 14:50:19 ack angel 14:50:19 q+ 14:50:27 q+ 14:50:49 angel: there's a bod with authority, groups working on spec development 14:50:53 ... the AB is in the middle 14:51:05 ... if it functions well, it is a central nerve of the membership 14:51:16 ... a group of people taking care of issues 14:51:29 s/taking/stably takng/ 14:51:30 ... valuable for the community to have a group in the middle 14:51:32 s/takng/taking/ 14:51:52 ... if the effort is more from the memnbership side, it's valuable 14:52:08 ... and saves time from the Team; how do we effectively collaborate and find the right boundaries 14:52:09 ack AvneeshSingh 14:52:30 AvneeshSingh: role of the AB as a kind of council for the TEam and for the BoD also 14:52:40 ... a council of people with various skill sets 14:52:54 ... because when decisions need to be made, many perspectives need to considered 14:53:27 ... different backgrounds, different skill sets 14:53:32 s/various/diverse/ 14:54:02 q? 14:54:02 ack wendyreid 14:54:18 scribe+ 14:54:20 wendyreid: I want to give a spicy answer to this question that I like 14:54:34 ... in my own capacity 14:54:48 ... if the AB disappeared, in some ways, nothing would change 14:54:51 i/wendyreid:/... bring abilities and perspectives that can be leveraged by Team, Board, etc. to help run the organization fluently/ 14:55:02 ... in some ways things might get easier, or be more difficult or challenging 14:55:15 ... we want the vision, the process, the code of conduct to happen 14:55:32 ... but because of the lack of clarity and the changes, we got stuck a bit 14:55:50 ... renewed clarity, renewed scope 14:56:01 ... give us new purpose 14:56:10 ... 7 seats coming up at this election 14:56:14 ... big shift 14:56:18 q+ 14:56:23 ... a renewed purpose is exciting 14:56:26 ack astearns 14:56:27 ack as 14:56:34 astearns: I really like the question too 14:56:57 ... one way to answer could be for the AB to choose one thing and see who yells about the things you dropped 14:57:04 wendyreid: I like it 14:57:12 ... thanks, great conversation 14:57:51 fantasai: we should ask community engagement on the list of things as we frequently advise 14:57:58 ... also we should have an overarching statement 14:58:02 ... because the TAG does 14:58:07 ... and the AB doesn't 14:58:16 ... @@what Chris said 14:58:28 wendyreid: we're going to continue the converstaion 14:58:33 s/staion/sation/ 14:58:36 s/@@what/suggest adopting what/ 14:58:42 ... including after the AC meeting in two weeks/ 14:58:48 RRSagent, make minutes 14:58:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html koalie 14:58:56 s/Chris said/Chris said: the AB advocates for the effectiveness of W3C as an organization. Because that ties together everything we do./ 14:59:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html fantasai 14:59:15 caribou has left #ABpurpose 15:01:36 present= 15:01:37 RRSagent, make minutes 15:01:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html koalie 15:04:07 present+ Alan_Stearns, Amy-van-der-Hiel, Angel_Li, Avneesh_Singh, Carine_Bournez, Chris_Wilson, Christine_Gefaell, Coralie_Mercier(koalie), Elika_Etemad(fantasai), Nigel_Megit, Ralph_Swick, Song_Xu, Wendy_Reid, Xueyuan_Ji 15:04:11 RRSagent, make minutes 15:04:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html koalie 15:04:18 s/opipnions/opinions 15:04:22 s/Megit/Megitt 15:06:52 s/another std org/another standards org/ 15:09:13 s/should ask community/should add community/ 15:10:22 s|weeks/|weeks.| 15:10:46 s|agnda+Open discussion about AB purpose|| 15:11:11 s/bod/BoD/ 15:13:17 s/stirredon/stirred on/ 15:17:25 s/TF, meetings/TF, structure of meetings/ 15:18:29 s/a std org/a standards organization/ 15:18:52 s/thing W3C has/think W3C has/ 15:19:06 s/TEam/Team/ 15:19:37 s/as an repr/as a rep/ 15:20:52 s/AB fan/AB can/ 15:21:48 s/spaces with/spaces where/ 15:22:24 s/memers/Reps/ 15:23:25 s/wante to/wanted to/ 15:23:46 s/committy/committee/ 15:24:31 s/ecosystemm/ecosystem/ 15:25:25 s/memnbership/membership/ 15:25:45 s/TEam/Team/G 15:26:48 s/bring abilities and perspectives that can be leveraged by Team, Board, etc. to help run the organization fluently// 15:27:05 RRSagent, make minutes 15:27:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/26-ABpurpose-minutes.html koalie 15:27:46 s/_Ji/_Jia/ 15:27:47 RRSagent, make minutes 15:27:48