12:09:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
12:09:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-pmwg-irc
12:09:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:09:58 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:10:16 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-03-20: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Mar/0020.html
12:10:17 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:10:17 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:10:17 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Mar/0020.html
12:10:18 <ivan> regrets+ mattgarrish
12:17:25 <LaurentLM> LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
12:48:06 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pmwg
12:48:11 <wendyreid> present+
12:51:31 <tzviya> regrets+
12:58:52 <AvneeshSingh> AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg
12:58:56 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pmwg
12:59:27 <CharlesL> present+
12:59:27 <ikkwong> ikkwong has joined #pmwg
12:59:50 <ivan> present+ duga, shiestyle, AvneeshSingh
13:00:08 <ivan> present+ ikkwong
13:00:21 <ivan> present+ george
13:00:38 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
13:00:56 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg
13:01:02 <ivan> present+ MasakazuKitahara
13:01:08 <SueNeu> SueNeu has joined #pmwg
13:01:09 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:01:14 <SueNeu> present+
13:01:15 <ivan> present+ SueNeu
13:01:22 <ivan> present+ hadrien
13:01:40 <dhall> dhall has joined #pmwg
13:01:46 <ivan> present+ dhall
13:01:51 <dhall> present+
13:01:54 <dhall> :-)
13:02:00 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:02:39 <George> present+
13:03:08 <sdelackner9> sdelackner9 has joined #pmwg
13:03:22 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pmwg
13:03:26 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
13:03:31 <gpellegrino> present+
13:03:44 <sdelackner9> present+
13:03:45 <duga> scribe+
13:06:03 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/blob/main/meetings/F2FMeetingFrance2025.md
13:06:11 <duga> wendyreid: Let's start. I promise to bribe the scribes at the F2F
13:06:31 <duga> ... We have a rough f2f agenda, rough because we want input
13:07:11 <duga> ... We tried to push things later in the day for timezone reasons
13:07:27 <duga> ... bu inria has operating hours we have to respect
13:08:38 <duga> ... More technical stuff is afternoon for better attendance for remotes
13:08:39 <Dale> Dale has joined #pmwg
13:09:01 <gpellegrino> q+
13:09:12 <gpellegrino> q-
13:10:14 <CharlesL> q+
13:10:16 <duga> ... if there is a session you want to attend but can't, please let us know
13:10:18 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:10:27 <duga> ... And let us know if we missed anything
13:10:41 <ivan> ack CharlesL
13:11:02 <gpellegrino> q+
13:11:22 <ivan> ack AvneeshSingh
13:11:22 <duga> CharlesL: Ouch, that is early
13:11:34 <duga> AvneeshSingh: We should be planning for the a11y TF
13:11:41 <Hadrien> present+
13:12:03 <duga> ... I don't think we will have time for a meeting beforehand, so can we have a 45 min to 1 hr session at the f2f?
13:12:20 <duga> ... And make sure the CharlesL and George can make that time
13:12:38 <ivan> ack gpellegrino
13:13:12 <duga> gpellegrino: We are changing times in Europe, so the times may be wrong
13:14:56 <duga> wendyreid: [updating the times]
13:15:26 <duga> CharlesL: Fixed layout a11y will be pushed to afternoon?
13:15:40 <duga> wendyreid: Yes, that will probably be what happens
13:16:24 <duga> wendyreid: We have a new person! Seh, introductions?
13:16:46 <duga> seth: I've been working with Dave for years
13:16:49 <dhall> q+
13:17:22 <wendyreid> ack dhall
13:17:22 <duga> ... I need to help Dave with spec work, since he has other things on his plate
13:17:48 <duga> dhall: My roles have changed inernally, so Seth will help, but I will stick around
13:18:20 <wendyreid> Topic: Footnotes and Extended Descriptions - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2690
13:18:26 <duga> wendyreid: Footnotes and extended descriptions
13:18:35 <duga> q+
13:18:36 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2691
13:19:01 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:19:23 <duga> wendyreid: footnotes have come up a couple of times on the list, and gpellegrino opened an issue on extended descriptions
13:19:37 <duga> ... these are very similar issues
13:20:30 <duga> ... There was once a philosophical decision that epub would explain how to make the metadata, etc, but we wouldn't tell them how to actually write their books
13:21:11 <duga> ... We are now seeing there is confusion around features, how to do them well and interchangeably
13:21:29 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/77
13:21:30 <duga> ... There are probably more issues than just footnotes and extended desc
13:21:52 <duga> ... I opened an issue to see if there are other things that would benefit from having an approach
13:22:12 <gpellegrino> cover page!
13:22:22 <SueNeu> q+
13:22:27 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:22:56 <duga> SueNeu: Most of my projects don't let me push the envelope very much
13:23:24 <duga> ... can we think of this in two ways, one as a best practices doc, and another for people who want to be more creative?
13:23:41 <Hadrien> q+
13:24:05 <duga> ... We have also matured, RS have really taken over the UX side
13:24:12 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:24:21 <duga> ... I am not sure I would want to push the envelope for most titles
13:24:39 <duga> Hadrien: Constraints can be liberating
13:24:43 <SueNeu> +1
13:25:03 <duga> ... Without constraints we can't provide some features
13:25:17 <gpellegrino> +1 to Hadrien
13:25:35 <duga> .... setting constraints actually makes features possible
13:26:16 <duga> wendyreid: Because of the interconnectedness of content and RS, what is the best approach for producing the document?
13:26:19 <Dale> +1 to Hadrien
13:26:27 <gpellegrino> q+
13:26:40 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:26:58 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:27:06 <duga> ... It isn't a huge change to add best practices, but it is huge o put it in the spec
13:27:15 <duga> gpellegrino: I think a note is the right thing
13:27:33 <duga> ... the same as 1.1 a11y techniques doc. Notes are easier to update
13:27:40 <duga> q+
13:27:59 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:28:01 <duga> ...though, with a note we can really check implementations
13:28:02 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:28:35 <duga> AvneeshSingh: I am reluctant to at user experience mandaes to the spec
13:28:57 <duga> ... if we need a normative change we should start from ux
13:28:58 <SueNeu> +1
13:29:01 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:29:30 <wendyreid> duga: We've certainly had a philosophical position of not mandating UX, except for the times we do (FXL)
13:29:46 <wendyreid> ... not sure if it's philosophical or practical, footnotes had epub:type for a long time
13:30:06 <wendyreid> ... but it also caused RMSDK to crash, and it was the main way books were displayed for a long time
13:30:24 <wendyreid> ... we didn't understand the consequences of the decision, and now we have a mess where people avoided using epub:type
13:30:48 <wendyreid> ... and there's endnotes vs footnotes, we're not picking one or the other, not something we can dictate
13:30:53 <ivan> q+
13:31:16 <wendyreid> ... we did dictate it, and it didn't work, and we created a problem, but it's hard to put in the spec, we don't know what will crash tomorrow
13:31:20 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:32:09 <duga> ivan: I must admit, it is difficul to put this into practice coming from the web
13:32:17 <Hadrien> q+
13:32:27 <duga> ... if we put constrains, then are we fighting with what html says to do?
13:32:30 <gpellegrino> q+
13:32:31 <wendyreid> q+
13:32:52 <duga> ... hml5 goes into extreme detail since it reverse engineers what actually happened in browsers
13:33:18 <duga> ... how would a RS constraint work? Are we splitting the web?
13:33:34 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:33:38 <duga> ... If I do a note with best practices, that is fine, but if it is normative it is scary
13:33:59 <duga> Hadrien: There is already a lot we do that isn't the web (e.g pagination)
13:34:10 <duga> ... So this is already the reality
13:34:23 <duga> ... So footnotes is probably better as best practices
13:34:47 <duga> ... We already live in a world where we diverge
13:35:12 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:35:13 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:35:23 <duga> ... But things like popup footnotes are a problem, since they work one way on one platform and differently on another
13:35:41 <duga> gpellegrino: We also have spine and TOC which is different from the web
13:36:11 <duga> ... We need guidance on how to mark things up
13:36:50 <duga> ... Without proper markup RS have to try and guess which causes problems
13:37:03 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:37:05 <ivan> +1 to gregorio
13:37:06 <duga> ... the bar shouldn't be on the RS implementation, but on what we expect from authors
13:37:09 <Hadrien> +1 to what gpellegrino just said
13:37:11 <LaurentLM> +1 to Gregorio
13:37:32 <duga> wendyreid: We want to push content creators to use html to the full extent
13:37:39 <duga> ... And we don't see that much today
13:38:00 <duga> ... Some books are just endless P tags, with different styles
13:38:07 <Dale> Dale has joined #pmwg
13:38:13 <duga> ... There is also dpub-aria which is under utilised
13:38:28 <ivan> q+
13:38:34 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:38:36 <duga> ... Content creators often don't know what will happen if they use it
13:38:39 <duga> q+
13:39:04 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Footnote, extended desc, these are important for a11y
13:39:22 <duga> ... when they change it causes confusion
13:39:36 <duga> ... We need conformance reqs
13:39:47 <duga> ... for instance, we need a way to get back from footnotes
13:39:56 <duga> ... this can be broad guidance
13:40:00 <ivan> q-
13:40:12 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:41:18 <ivan> q+
13:41:33 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:41:47 <duga> wendyreid: It is helpful for RS implementors to get things in a standard way - implementors know what things would be good here
13:42:07 <CharlesL> q+
13:42:33 <duga> ivan: So we start with some sort of note, say best practices, keeping an eye on whether we need new things in the spec (eg epub types)
13:42:40 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:42:44 <duga> ... but I am not seeing much need for normative changes
13:42:47 <duga> q+
13:42:56 <duga> wendyreid: I think that is right
13:43:12 <duga> CharlesL: Another thing is page breaks, they all seem to be different
13:43:18 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:43:32 <wendyreid> duga: On the reading system normative side, I think there are some
13:43:45 <wendyreid> ... being able to go back from a footnote, that's a normative thing we might want to say
13:43:59 <wendyreid> ... it's strange, but there might be something to add there
13:44:05 <CharlesL> q+
13:44:26 <wendyreid> ... another thing might be the display of footnotes in popups, most RSs display the text, but footntoes aren't used in Japan, they have ruby
13:44:41 <wendyreid> ... we could make normative statements, if you display a popup, use the HTML
13:44:50 <Hadrien> q+
13:45:11 <wendyreid> ... we can spec all we want, but if there is no one doing it, it may not matter
13:45:39 <wendyreid> ... we shouldn't be too prescriptive, we should respect the content
13:45:43 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:45:44 <shiestyle> q+
13:45:59 <duga> CharlesL: Also linking in general, the web already has a back buton
13:46:10 <duga> ... having a RS mimic that has been missing
13:46:36 <SueNeu> q+
13:46:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:46:46 <duga> ... for instance one to many links are hard to author correctly wihout rs back funcionality
13:47:11 <duga> Hadrien: For back affordance, there are some RS that have history
13:47:29 <duga> ... sometimes there is contextual back, usually for following links
13:47:38 <ivan> present+ Laura_Driussi
13:48:13 <duga> ... Apple set implementation for popups, but displaying the content richly is really hard
13:48:29 <duga> ... styling, for instance, is really hard
13:48:50 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:49:00 <duga> ... No one has managed to do popup + styled
13:49:24 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:49:26 <duga> shiestyle: Japanese content is pretty complex, so we generally refrain from footnotes
13:49:41 <ivan> q+
13:49:45 <duga> SueNeu: Ebooks may also diverge on location in the documen
13:50:06 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:50:09 <duga> ... sometimes we need to be able o point back to a printed item
13:50:16 <CharlesL> q+
13:50:37 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:50:40 <duga> ivan: Annotation popups will be an issue
13:51:00 <duga> CharlesL: And footnote popup can be extended to ext desc
13:51:13 <duga> ... So guidance there would be great
13:51:38 <dhall> dhall has joined #pmwg
13:51:46 <duga> ... WW Norton did some experiments with that back in the day
13:51:56 <duga> ... maybe we can use those as examples
13:52:27 <wendyreid> Topic: AOB
13:52:51 <ivan> q+
13:52:54 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:52:59 <CharlesL> s/WW Norton/WW Norton (Evan Yamanishi)
13:53:36 <duga> ivan: Practical point - how should we handle zooms for TFs? Should we use the same or use new ones?
13:54:05 <duga> Hadrien: Not likely we overlap with the group meeting
13:54:29 <duga> ... Maybe TF overlaps? But we should probably avoid that
13:54:46 <duga> ivan: I would like the TF leaders to avoid overlap with the main meeting
13:54:50 <LaurentLM> +1 to Ivan
13:55:09 <duga> ... on the other hand, having two TF overlap can happen
13:55:26 <duga> ... If that is a real possibility we should have more zooms
13:55:59 <CharlesL> q+
13:56:03 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:56:47 <duga> CharlesL: Last week we had csun, I presented guidelines, Amazon was there and they will use it in their store
13:57:23 <duga> AvneeshSingh: This work has been done in the CG if people want to follow along
13:58:07 <duga> ivan: Any chance to get Amazon in this group?
14:00:59 <gpellegrino> Post referenced by Charles: https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/whats-new/amazon-kindle-will-ingest-accessibility-metadata-following-the-onix-3-1-standards/
14:01:28 <CharlesL> here is that link for the viewer
14:01:30 <CharlesL> DAISY Accessibility Metadata Viewer
14:01:42 <CharlesL> https://daisy.github.io/a11y-meta-viewer/
14:02:09 <ivan> present+ Dale_Rogers
14:02:26 <ivan> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:02:43 <CharlesL> Accessibility Metadata Display Guide for Digital Publications 2.0 https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/a11y-meta-display-guide/2.0/guidelines/
14:02:44 <CharlesL> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:02:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-pmwg-minutes.html CharlesL
14:03:24 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pmwg
14:03:43 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:03:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items