15:52:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
15:52:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-aria-irc
15:52:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:52:31 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
15:52:42 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
15:53:41 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
15:53:41 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
15:54:04 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
15:54:35 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2025Mar/0014.html
15:54:36 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:54:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/53z8rzh8)
15:54:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-13+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues)
15:54:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y)
15:54:37 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
15:54:40 <agendabot> agenda+ [Group as allowed acc child of role menu if acc child of menuitem](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2438)
15:54:43 <agendabot> agenda+ [Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402)
15:54:46 <agendabot> agenda+ [Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093)
15:54:49 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
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16:59:11 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
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17:02:57 <pkra1> present+
17:03:10 <Rahim> present+
17:03:16 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:03:31 <pkra1> scribe+
17:03:32 <katez> present+
17:03:36 <Adam_Page> present+
17:03:37 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/53z8rzh8) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:45 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:03:49 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:51 <Daniel> present+ Daniel
17:04:04 <smockle> present+
17:05:50 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:05:50 <aardrian> present+
17:06:06 <np-at> present+
17:08:04 <melsumner> present+
17:08:17 <jcraig> present+
17:08:20 <Summer> Summer has joined #aria
17:08:27 <Summer> present+
17:08:49 <pkra1> jamesn: some DPUB aria issues.
17:09:16 <pkra1> ... they're mostly editorial.
17:09:23 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
17:09:39 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:10:07 <pkra1> pkra1:  I commented. Tried to answer, Some editorial issues.
17:10:18 <pkra1> jamesn: aria 2479. ariaNotify
17:10:29 <pkra1> ... alison seems to be on it.
17:10:59 <pkra1> ... does this need to be agenda'd ?
17:11:40 <pkra1> clay: Alison addressed a lot in comments.
17:11:58 <pkra1> jcraig: have been discussing this separately, too.
17:12:20 <pkra1> ... also about extending WPT to cover things. Dominic will likely become more active.
17:12:46 <pkra1> jamesn: great. we can revisit them later then?
17:12:56 <pkra1> clay: yes.
17:13:00 <pkra1> jcraig: +1
17:13:10 <pkra1> clay: I'll keep an eye on them.
17:13:47 <pkra1> jamesn: I had responded. Can we close this?
17:14:03 <pkra1> melsumner: we should point to html-aam more.
17:14:17 <pkra1> jamesn: maybe a generic at top?
17:14:23 <pkra1> melsumner: yes. I'll take it on
17:14:25 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:14:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-13+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:30 <pkra1> keith: I'll review pkra's
17:15:41 <pkra1> jamesn: and the other one has review
17:15:59 <pkra1> Francis_Storr: there was a question to jcraig or Rahim.
17:16:04 <pkra1> jcraig: I'll look
17:16:12 <pkra1> zakim. next item
17:16:17 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:16:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:08 <pkra1> jcraig: nothing right now.
17:17:16 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:17:20 <pkra1> ... does giacomo-petri's need review?
17:17:35 <pkra1> giacomo-petri: I can try adding more examples.
17:18:03 <pkra1> jcraig: seems good to go with graphics role
17:18:06 <pkra1> ... then continue
17:18:13 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:18:13 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:28 <pkra1> jamesn: any new deep dives?
17:18:38 <pkra1> ... also: do we need the whitespace one at this point?
17:18:51 <pkra1> melsumner: I think we might not need to. I created a project so people can review.
17:19:02 <pkra1> ... I can pull that together. We need to know & share this.
17:19:13 <pkra1> jamesn: that sounds good. It helps  attract contributions to be async.
17:19:14 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:19:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Group as allowed acc child of role menu if acc child of menuitem](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2438) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:32 <pkra1> jamesn: where we stopped last week.
17:20:01 <pkra1> giacomo-petri: the big problem for me is the inconsistency across specs. They seem contradictory.
17:20:30 <pkra1> ... menuitem says it needs group with menu or menubar parent.
17:20:42 <pkra1> ... but menu doesn't
17:20:52 <pkra1> jamesn: can we change the spec to remove this contradiction?
17:21:09 <pkra1> giacomo-petri: I could try.
17:21:14 <pkra1> jamesn: That would be great.
17:21:35 <jamesn> agenda?
17:21:38 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:21:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402) -- taken up [from
17:21:40 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:22:28 <pkra1> jamesn:  in January we had hoped aardrian might find it interesting.
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17:22:44 <pkra1> ... any chance you could take a look?
17:23:00 <pkra1> aardrian: I'll take a look.
17:23:21 <pkra1> zakim, next item
17:23:21 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:24 <pkra1> jcraig: I brought it back to the group because when I originally filed it, I thought engines already did this. Turns out, Firefox does not.
17:24:40 <pkra1> ... webkit and chromium do
17:24:52 <pkra1> ... jamie and alice questioned if we really want this.
17:25:25 <CurtBellew> present+
17:25:25 <pkra1> ... subsequent issues surfaced that its use has reasonably low usage in data.
17:25:36 <pkra1> ... there is some complexity in supporting this in webkit and chromium.
17:25:58 <pkra1> ... some concern about future implementations, e.g. shadow boundary
17:26:18 <keithamus> q+
17:26:34 <pkra1> ... so even though the group had decided to support this mispelling, we should re-consider with the new / corrected information.
17:26:39 <aardrian> Q+
17:26:57 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:26:58 <pkra1> jamesn: maybe a console warning instead?
17:27:00 <pkra1> jamesn: ideally.
17:27:17 <pkra1> ack keithamus
17:27:49 <pkra1> keithamus: I'd try a use counter and do an intent to deprecate in Chrome.
17:27:50 <scott> q+
17:27:58 <pkra1> ack aardrian
17:28:11 <pkra1> aardrian: I see dev typos all the time.
17:28:18 <keithamus> q+
17:28:23 <pkra1> ... is there anything we already have that could guide our process?
17:28:42 <pkra1> jcraig: in those cases, we have some alias examples.
17:28:58 <pkra1> ... but one point was that we don't support other typos, e.g. title.
17:29:16 <pkra1> ... and the complexity with shadow dom, it changes it.
17:29:47 <pkra1> ... it's unclear why this change was made in webkit. I think it predated the blink fork. People probably never noticed.
17:30:12 <pkra1> ... the complexity of asking Firefox to implement this raises questions, in particular some affecting webkit and blink.
17:30:27 <pkra1> ... e.g., accname
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17:30:46 <pkra1> ... e.g. object reference.
17:31:16 <melsumner> q+
17:31:21 <pkra1> ... so my initial perspective was "we already have this, let's standardize" but now see things differently.
17:31:28 <aardrian> I feel bad for jcrag offering the full history. I am on board with a console warning.
17:31:32 <jamesn> ack scott
17:32:22 <pkra1> scott: not arguing for either but I'd have to file many issues where we found these spellings.
17:32:39 <pkra1> ... I just need to know which direction we're going.
17:32:57 <pkra1> jcraig: we could also acknowledge that it's something that exists.
17:33:15 <pkra1> ... alice mentioned the trouble working around it.
17:33:17 <jamesn> q+
17:33:26 <pkra1> ... but we're not necessarily talking about taking it out.
17:33:27 <pkra1> q+
17:34:15 <pkra1> scott: right, trying to fix these in code bases will be low priority.
17:34:19 <Daniel> The aria-labeled by [sic] discussion (including Jamie/Alice): https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093#issuecomment-2705243103
17:34:19 <Daniel> 
17:34:19 <Daniel> Alice said “…it adds a lot of complexity and potential fragility to the codebases”
17:34:23 <pkra1> jcraig: I liked Keith's proposal.
17:34:27 <melsumner> q-
17:34:38 <jamesn> ack keithamus
17:34:40 <jamesn> q-
17:35:23 <pkra1> keithamus: doing nothing doesn't improve the situation but it seems like a waste of resources to ask Firefox to support this.
17:35:33 <pkra1> ... I don't think we have an alias that's another spelling.
17:35:35 <melsumner> fwiw there are code linters that already check for invalid aria, and it's pretty common in JS land to alias things so I'm not super worried about this compared to other issues we're trying to solve
17:35:52 <pkra1> ... it will take some energy to deprecate but it seems worth the energy.
17:36:47 <pkra1> jcraig: history fun fact we tried to fix it early but the implementation in JAWS had just finished...
17:36:49 <pkra1> ack me
17:36:59 <jamesn> q- pkra1
17:37:04 <jamesn> q?
17:37:18 <pkra1> jamesn: so what are we doing?
17:37:25 <pkra1> keith: I pushed a use counter patch for chrome.
17:37:30 <pkra1> ... if that's merged, we have some more data.
17:37:43 <pkra1> jamesn: ok. let's revisit once we have some data.
17:37:59 <pkra1> melsumner: also: let's all add this to linter rules.
17:38:18 <pkra1> keithamus: right. and with deprecation we can surface console warnings.
17:38:23 <jamesn> agenda?
17:38:25 <pkra1> jamesn: sounds good.
17:38:51 <pkra1> zakim, end meeting.
17:38:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, smockle, zakk, Rahim, Adam_Page, katez, Francis_Storr, Daniel, CurtBellew, scott, filippo-zorzi, pkra, keithamus, StefanS,
17:38:54 <Zakim> ... aardrian, np-at, melsumner, jcraig, Summer
17:38:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:38:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:39:02 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra1; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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