19:06:45 RRSAgent has joined #aria-at 19:06:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-aria-at-irc 19:06:49 RRSAgent, make logs Public 19:06:50 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike 19:07:00 present+ jugglinmike 19:07:03 scribe+ jugglinmike 19:07:26 meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference 19:07:43 present+ 19:07:58 present+ howard-e 19:08:01 present+ james 19:08:05 present+ IsaDC 19:08:17 present+ mfairchild 19:08:20 present+ carmen 19:08:47 present+ mmoss 19:08:49 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at 19:08:56 present+ 19:09:02 present+ Matt_King_ 19:09:10 topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates 19:09:13 https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/March-20%2C-2025-Agenda 19:09:34 Matt_King_: Requests for changes to agenda? 19:10:26 jugglinmike: I'd late to ask about the version of NVDA that testers have been using 19:10:56 Matt_King_: Okay 19:10:58 s/late/like/ 19:11:27 Joe_Humbert: Is there a way to input a new version of the software? A lot of time, I have to choose the wrong version because the version I'm using is not listed 19:12:00 Matt_King_: Okay, we'll discuss those things together, right after the status update 19:12:26 Matt_King_: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday March 24 19:12:42 Matt_King_: Next Community Group Meeting: Wednesday March 26 19:12:49 Matt_King_: No meeting Thursday April 3 19:13:30 Topic: Current status 19:13:54 Matt_King_: There aren't really any major updates to what's happening in Candidate Review (with one exception, but that's covered later when we talk about what's on hold) 19:14:10 Matt_King_: We still have the same 13 plans in Candidate Review, hopefully it will be 15 plans, soo 19:14:32 Matt_King_: We have three we're working on in Draft Review. One of those (a new version of "radio group") is already in Candidate Review 19:14:57 Matt_King_: In terms of updates that are in progress, the one that is really close is "vertical temperature slider" and IsaDC has another with a goal of the end of next week 19:15:46 IsaDC: The "rating slider" 19:15:58 Matt_King_: That will wrap up sliders for us. 19:16:24 Matt_King_: Right now, we have a brand-new version of the "disclosure navigation menu" test plan that's in Candidate Review 19:17:03 Matt_King_: We're going to re-run that again after the new JAWS is released. We should probably re-run at least the final test for all of the screen readers (since it may change how we report things). We're going to save that until May 19:17:36 Matt_King_: I met with Vispero yesterday. They were hoping that the fix for same-page links would be released in March. They had to roll back the fix, unfortunately, so it won't ship until May 19:17:59 Topic: Testing radio group with active descendant 19:18:04 Matt_King_: NVDA and VoiceOver complete! 19:18:10 Matt_King_: Zero open linked issues! 19:18:23 Matt_King_: We have IsaDC's results, and we have partial results from Hadi which are out of date 19:18:38 IsaDC: I still have not heard from Hadi, neither in my personal e-mail nor in the mailing list 19:19:16 Matt_King_: I think we'll have to get someone else to run this and delete Hadi's test plan run. There are 39 conflicts there because they are basically out of date 19:19:27 Matt_King_: Do we have a taker for JAWS? 19:20:16 Joe_Humbert: I logged an issue with JAWS producing inconsistent results. I'm a bit worried that I'll run into that same issue 19:20:34 Joe_Humbert: I was sometimes getting some information and sometimes not, using the same key strokes each time 19:20:45 Joe_Humbert: I don't think this was related to my use of the demo version of JAWS 19:21:20 Joe_Humbert: If we have a lot of testing that needs to be done, there is a three-month license that I can look into purchasing 19:21:34 Matt_King_: We're hoping to get more volunteers for JAWS 19:22:28 Joe_Humbert: I can re-run this one, it's just going to take me a little while. I ran this test plan with NVDA, so I know there's a lot to do there 19:22:34 IsaDC: Thank you, Joe_Humbert 19:23:05 Matt_King_: By the way, as we are anticipating onboarding some more people, a common question that we have been getting is: "how long does it take to run these test plans?" 19:23:26 Matt_King_: IsaDC typically tells people a long test plan takes 90 minutes 19:23:47 Matt_King_: I usually take more time than that 19:23:49 Joe_Humbert: Each of the radio test plans took me about 2 hours 19:24:23 Joe_Humbert: When we had to re-do the one when we already had responses, I got through those a lot quicker because I was just confirming what was already there (rather than entering the information manually) 19:25:05 IsaDC: I timed myself for fun, earlier. When running the "media seek slider" test plan with VoiceOver, it took me about 25 minutes (which included double-checking my results--I went back to each and review) 19:25:16 Matt_King_: That's fast! Though you are very good with the recorder 19:25:57 mmoss: I don't have an estimate for my time; I'm often distracted by pings while testing 19:26:10 IsaDC: I can delete Hadi's test plan and create one for Joe_Humbert 19:26:50 Topic: Testing Radio group with roving tab index 19:27:02 Matt_King_: We're in largely the same situation with this one, so I think we want to do the same thing 19:27:14 Matt_King_: Let's prioritize "Active descendant," first and then see how that goes 19:27:32 Matt_King_: Then if Joe_Humbert or mmoss or someone else has bandwidth next week, we can tackle "tab index" 19:27:42 Matt_King_: There are two issues here in the agenda 19:28:01 Matt_King_: Both of these are related to the VoiceOver Bot 19:28:26 Matt_King_: The first issue is 1171 https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1171 19:28:35 Matt_King_: This is related to extra spaces in the output 19:28:58 Matt_King_: If an issue related to the bot was raised in a separate repository, we could reference this issue there and close this issue 19:29:17 Joe_Humbert: I was consistently getting the same issue with the bot where I was observing a significant number of extra spaces 19:30:25 jugglinmike: We can create a separate issue for the bot, reference this issue there, and close this 19:30:57 howard-e: You can assign this issue to carmen 19:31:22 Matt 19:31:45 Matt_King_: Done 19:32:23 Matt_King_: The second issue is 1172, https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1172 19:32:43 Matt_King_: It's also about the bot. Should we handle this in the same way? 19:33:03 jugglinmike: We haven't investigated this, yet 19:33:11 Matt_King_: I'm going to assign this to carmen, as well 19:33:13 carmen: Sounds good 19:34:18 ChrisCuellar: We have an issue for this. I'll reference this issue from that and close this 19:35:04 Matt_King_: Joe_Humbert, when you're running a test, sometimes these things are related to what happens in a specific test. So reporting in this way creates some helpful trace-ability 19:40:01 howard-e: An issue label such as "bot" might be helpful, but I don't know whether a Tester should add such a label or if we should add it together during these triage discussions 19:40:22 ChrisCuellar: We can propose a process for this kind of categorization 19:41:01 Matt_King_: If anyone raises a test plan issue and the issue is related to the bot or the app or anything like that, then in general, that's totally okay as long as we have a fast way to close it (e.g. by linking to it from a app or bot issue) 19:41:34 Matt_King_: I have no problem with that because it's so convenient to raise from the app like this (and because you might not know whether the issue is specific to some other sub-system) 19:41:52 carmen: I can own this--it's already part of my process, informally 19:41:57 Matt_King_: Great! 19:41:57 howard-__ has joined #aria-at 19:42:14 Topic: Testing Media Seek Slider 19:42:31 Matt_King_: This has three issues open. I think two of them (1205 and 1206) are the same issue 19:42:45 Matt_King_: 1205 is related to decrementing by one step 19:43:22 Matt_King_: This is a rendering problem. But there are a lot of comments. I want to make sure this is fully resolved 19:43:43 Matt_King_: We're not going to take any of howard-e's suggestions because Joe_Humbert has already re-run it manually 19:43:49 IsaDC: So we can just close 1205, then 19:44:09 IsaDC: Although I caught an editorial error. I'm just scared to push any new version of that test plan! 19:44:17 Matt_King_: It should be safe 19:44:35 Matt_King_: Anyway, I will close issue 1205 19:44:42 Matt_King_: Can we close 1206? 19:44:50 carmen: I'm going to clean this up after this call 19:44:54 Matt_King_: Excellent 19:45:05 Matt_King_: And now for issue 1209. 19:45:17 Matt_King_: This is Joe_Humbert's issue about an inconsistency with the "f" key in JAWS 19:45:29 Matt_King_: You finished the plan, and you got the expected result some of the time 19:45:49 Joe_Humbert: I don't know if it was the expected result because I got both. The test plan allows for both to be there. It has questions for both 19:46:09 Joe_Humbert: Sometimes, it wouldn't say the minimum and maximum values. Other times, it would. I used the "f" key for all cases 19:46:30 Matt_King_: I don't remember it saying min and max when I was running the test plan, though I was using an older version of JAWS 19:46:55 Joe_Humbert: I think I ran it 7 or 8 times, and I think it said the min and max value only two of those times 19:47:09 IsaDC: I haven't run the test plan yet, but I'm planning on doing so today 19:47:41 Matt_King_: Okay, so let's leave this open for now. In cases where flaky behavior yields a bad result a reasonable amount of time, I would be tempted to have us record the bad behavior in the test results 19:47:49 Matt_King_: We don't have a side-effect called "sometimes works" 19:47:57 Joe_Humbert: And I don't think we should have that 19:48:14 Matt_King_: Yes, but unless it shows up in a report somehow, it's hard to track it 19:48:26 Matt_King_: Let's leave this open for now and see what IsaDC experiences 19:49:11 Topic: Screen reader versions 19:49:34 Matt_King_: Joe_Humbert mentioned that the version he is using is sometimes not available 19:50:04 Matt_King_: James, IsaDC, and myself all have the ability to add new versions to the system. The first step would be to ask us to add a new version 19:50:23 Joe_Humbert: I experienced this with JAWS most recently, but I've also experienced it with VoiceOver and NVDA 19:57:36 Matt_King_: When I look at the list of all NVDA versions on the "Data Management" page, I'm not seeing 2024.4.2. I see 2024.4.1. 19:57:43 IsaDC: I will re-add it 19:58:07 James: Before you re-add it. If there is an issue with versions not being listed, I think we need to know that 19:58:23 James: If I assign myself to NVDA and then click "Start Testing", the latest is 2024.4.1 19:58:35 James: are we saying that we added that and you can see it in your test queue? 19:58:51 Matt_King_: When you are in the test queue, IsaDC, are you saying that you can see 2024.4.2? 19:59:49 howard-e: They appear in order of release date, descending 20:00:58 James: can we track when each version was added to the app and display that? 20:01:52 jugglinmike: That could be addressed by our larger plan to surface all events (rather than extending this specific UI with still more information) 20:20:16 Zakim, end the meeting 20:20:16 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, howard-e, james, IsaDC, mfairchild, carmen, mmoss, ChrisCuellar, Matt_King_ 20:20:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 20:20:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/20-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim 20:20:26 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 20:20:26 Zakim has left #aria-at 20:21:22 RRSAgent, leave 20:21:22 I see no action items