17:05:03 RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web 17:05:07 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/19-immersive-web-irc 17:05:07 rrsagent, make log public 17:05:08 meeting: Immersive Web Groups Face-to-Face Day 2 17:05:08 chair: Ada 17:05:13 m-alkalbani has joined #immersive-web 17:05:18 present+ 17:05:24 present+ 17:05:24 present+ 17:05:27 present+ 17:05:31 mkeblx has joined #immersive-web 17:05:36 present+ 17:05:45 Brandel has joined #immersive-web 17:05:54 present+ 17:05:58 agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/F2F-March-2025/schedule.md 17:07:00 yonet has joined #immersive-web 17:07:12 present+ 17:08:15 topic: arrive, administravia 17:08:33 ada: see no new colleage, start without round introduction 17:08:55 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:08:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/19-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi 17:09:04 q? 17:09:06 scribeNick: m-alkalbani 17:09:21 topic: Model: Add example showing enabling interactivity (immersive-web/model-element #20) 17:10:07 Brandel: [sharing the latest updates and examples on the explainer] 17:11:41 ... stage mode = orbit is similar to QuickLook where you can manipulate the object (rotate it up and down, left to right etc) 17:11:41 bajones has joined #Immersive-Web 17:11:59 ... this issues is about adding examples to the specification and explainer 17:12:04 trevorPicoXR has joined #immersive-web 17:12:14 ... wondering if we should have a repo (or public site) for examples 17:12:40 q+ 17:13:11 ... prefer putting examples in a separate repo / site and not just limited to explainer and spec 17:13:29 ... thoughts on putting examples online? 17:13:38 yonet: would the webxr samples page work? 17:14:00 q+ 17:14:08 q- 17:14:15 ada: we could make a separate model element page to the webxr samples 17:14:39 ack yonet 17:14:53 Ruoya just arrived alcooper would you or brandon be able to let her in? 17:15:01 lucas has joined #immersive-web 17:15:07 bajones: a separate repo would be a better option, mainly to not overcrowd the webxr samples page 17:16:14 q+ 17:16:22 ack alcooper 17:16:33 Brandel: agreement on working on visual example code on the explainer 17:16:45 q+ 17:17:01 ack trevorPicoXR 17:17:11 trevorPicoXR: are samples going to be public? 17:17:24 Brandel: yes 17:17:42 https://immersive-web.github.io/model-element/explainer_demo.html 17:18:00 q? 17:19:28 Brandel: scope of examples will be around main functionality of model-element 17:19:39 ada: no problem in creating new repo for examples 17:19:46 topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/15 17:21:14 lgombos has joined #immersive-web 17:21:20 present+ Laszlo_Gombos 17:21:35 ruoya has joined #immersive-web 17:22:29 q+ 17:22:33 ack ada 17:22:34 Brandel: we need to figure out best implementation and examples will be a big part of that 17:23:10 ada: one thing that would be good to see is if orbit control is at a level where developers can implement it, might be good to have that as sample code 17:24:09 q? 17:25:01 https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/15 17:25:33 Brandel: formats issue - this was raised when people were under the impression that a model needed subresource fetching 17:25:44 i|topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/15|topic: Model: Formats and CSP (immersive-web/model-element #15)| 17:26:36 q+ 17:26:39 ... might be worth comparing different security approaches to subresource fetching 17:26:48 ack bajones 17:27:10 bajones: don't see any reason why we need subresource fetching this early on 17:27:18 q+ 17:28:50 ... one of primary benefits to delivering models as separate assets is if you have large models then it can be a benefit to cache separate images or textures, but don't see that as a big use case here 17:29:14 ack cabanier 17:29:32 Rik: you mentioned sub-resource fetches will be done as model? 17:29:35 q+ 17:30:08 ... can't that be done as an image (similar rules to images and SVGs) 17:31:09 ada: model is different enough to an image (in terms of size at least) that if a browser is requesting a model it should say it's requesting a model and not a 300mb image 17:31:52 Brandel: fetching would be at the discretion of the device 17:33:19 q? 17:33:26 ack trevorPicoXR 17:33:50 trevorPicoXR: can you elaborate on threejs rendering scene to USDZ? 17:34:12 Brandel: there is a usdz exporter developed by threejs 17:35:02 q? 17:35:35 ada: one resolution we want to get from this is whether people are still okay with fetching one resource rather than sub-resource fetching 17:36:13 (fetching one resource is preferred) 17:37:05 https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/27 17:37:22 topic: Model: Default Styling (immersive-web/model-element #27) 17:37:28 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:37:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/19-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi 17:38:16 Brandel: looking for any ideas/views on default styling of model 17:38:35 q+ 17:38:40 ack cabanier 17:38:44 ... keep to default or specify size? models can be kilometers or cm 17:39:03 Rik: is model the first element that doesn't have intrinsic size? 17:39:34 ... used SVGs as an example for intrinsic sizes 17:40:09 Brandel: recommend that we don't rasterize in a user presentable way to allow people to do what they want 17:40:33 ada: also don't think we should stop UA's doing foveation on models 17:40:58 q+ 17:40:59 q+ 17:40:59 Brandel: CSS canvas is the ultimate determent, then you go to attributes if that's not specified 17:41:07 ack bajones 17:41:15 lucas has joined #immersive-web 17:42:11 bajones: 300x 150 is a silly default to make/force people to resize 17:42:39 q- 17:42:39 q+ to be devils advocate 17:42:51 ... if it's no more than just canvas then no reason to break that trend 17:43:18 ... seems likely that this will be the first time we have an element that doesn't have a transparent background 17:43:56 ... harsh part of this decision is we must override CSS if it conflicts with stereo presentation 17:45:49 ack ada 17:45:49 ada, you wanted to be devils advocate 17:45:51 Brandel: it would be technically possible to have a transparent background but it would be the wrong thing to do in some cases 17:46:13 q+ 17:46:44 ada: in this case if you were to treated like html and iframe, it defaults to white 17:47:35 bajones: recalling previous conversation about whether or not we take certain CSS freedom away from developers 17:48:15 ... not a specific issue on the agenda but might be worth discussing further with the CSS group, also reasonable to go to them with this practical recommendation 17:48:38 A hare ran by the window. 17:49:40 Rik: points out html is still transparent 17:50:11 bajones: whether you're in dark mode or light mode, you still have to specify that using CSS 17:50:42 Rik: so this would be the first element which is not transparent 17:51:00 [10 minute break] 17:54:26 rrsagent, publish minutes 17:54:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/19-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi 17:54:33 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 18:02:51 lucas has joined #immersive-web 18:03:04 scribenick: alcooper 18:03:51 q+ 18:03:54 ada: Discussing setting background color of model element and need to speak to CSS WG about these restrictions 18:04:01 ack cabanier 18:04:01 q+ 18:04:38 Brandel: Should speak to CSS folks; but are we in broad agreement that this is complicated enough to make this be an Opaque element? 18:04:44 Rik: Disagree 18:05:03 Ada: it'll be weird from a standards thing being the one that's not transparent? 18:05:05 Rik: Yes 18:05:23 Ada: What if there was a new thing like "matting color" and that's effectively what we're doing here? 18:05:41 Rik: Matting is the final step, so that's different and this would just be background color 18:06:07 Ada: Do you think Model should be transparent even in stereo? 18:06:10 Rik: Yes 18:07:01 Ada: Don't want to encourage flks to put things behind the model, but then things get rendered in front of it, yielding an uncomfortable punch through effect 18:07:07 Rik: Shouldn't that be up to the author? 18:07:16 Ada: Don't want to take that away, but talking about defaults 18:07:21 s/flks/folks 18:07:49 Rik: Would it be weird to have your whole page be yellow except for a white box for the default model? 18:08:15 Bajones: I regret to inform you, I-Frames do opaque backgrounds; though spec text source is unclear, GH issues/Articles point to this being the case 18:08:52 Rik: Is this not an edge case? 18:09:03 q+ 18:09:08 Bajones: Yes, but there are at least some occasions where iframes get default backgrounds by default 18:09:29 ... Not sure if they always get opaque backgrounds, you may need to opt-in to a transparent background. 18:09:38 Rik: Just tried it, and they don't seem to get colors by defaults 18:10:17 Bajones: There are cases where bg color can be picked for readability, which feels similar to our case 18:10:56 ... If the process of having a transparent bg would make perceiving the element difficult or uncomfortable, we should pick a non-transparent bg. This is like the punch through effect 18:11:06 Ada: Alternative: BG color inherit 18:11:46 Ada: So it wouldn't be transparent by default, but wouldn't look too weird 18:12:06 Rik: So if you say inherit, and no one defines it, then default woul dbe transparent 18:12:11 Ada: Yes 18:12:24 Ada: Oh, it only goes to direct parent 18:13:05 Bajones: If Default is inherit, but there's no parent so default is actually transparent, we're kind of in the same boat. In this case we still have the transparent background in the stereo context that looks weird 18:13:56 Ada: This looks weird because text is in front of the model, but physically behind it, but renders differently 18:14:03 Brandel: [Shows a demo of this] 18:14:48 Brandel: Spatial CSS would be different because we could push things into the page, but if CSS only affects the surface of hte page, we can't affect the depth and so this is weird 18:15:04 ... However, another example is having multiple models on the page 18:15:13 q? 18:15:15 q- 18:15:28 ack bajones 18:15:31 Brandel: With the default background, the teapot would render on top of the text 18:15:50 bajones: Just introduce z-buffer for the whole page! (/s) 18:16:10 q+ 18:16:14 ack atsushi 18:16:15 ... This is an awkward and uncomfortable enough thing that we should take steps to prevent this default 18:16:19 ack cabanier 18:16:23 q+ cabanier 18:16:52 atsushi: Had discussion similar to this at last TPAC if Model is a MediaElement; IFrames may be special cased; but do MediaElements have such special cases? 18:16:59 ack cabanier 18:17:15 q+ 18:17:20 cabanier: Should CSS even apply here and there should just always be a punchthrough? (Unless the model isn't loaded) 18:17:42 Brandel: Model won't occupy entire viewport, so needs to be matted on top of 18:17:52 ... don't just want punchthrough to your aparment 18:17:59 Rik: This all feels weird, we should chat with CSS folks 18:18:02 Ada: +1 18:18:17 ... Or TAG, but maybe CSS folks first 18:18:34 ... will look into joint meeting or asking experts to drop-in to one of our meetings. 18:18:57 bajones: To motivate CSS usage: We still do want to impact size/positioning of element, so some CSS does need to apply. 18:19:14 ... another scenario we discussed was that some cases may never want stereo 18:19:39 ... This shouldn't be the default; but want developers to have the flexibility 18:19:57 ... In those cases, all CSS should apply 18:20:17 q? 18:20:19 ... won't be surprised about in-headset behavior. So the stereo case is the only "edge-case" here 18:20:20 ack bajones 18:20:22 q+ 18:20:24 ack ada 18:21:10 q+ 18:21:18 Ada: feel quite strongly that some CSS doesn't apply. Rules that can't work spatially, should always not work even on monoscopic display. But maybe a mode to force entirely monoscopic, and then they apply 18:21:24 ack trevorPicoXR 18:21:31 ... not just default on fallback 18:22:06 trevorPicoXR: This might come down to impl details when rendering with transparency, might actually need the texture of the stereo element when rendering in the browser. Does this have privacy implications? 18:22:12 q? 18:22:40 Brandel: A couple of things to either not support or otherwise e.g. drawPixels 18:23:15 ... Tab Previews/Shared Views are monoscopic textures would look weird if composited from user POV. So some need for a neutrally projected view 18:23:22 ... independent of being part of web standard 18:23:42 q? 18:23:44 ... so re-use for standard would be good as well 18:24:29 Ada: Scribing a list of questions into GH issue 18:25:27 Brandel: Filter may not need special casing, perspective transforms are barely relevant 18:25:35 ... but we shouldn't allow them 18:26:52 ... no path to shearing model contents, but shearing viewport is definitely bad 18:27:13 Ada: Add other questions to Model Issue #27 so that CSS WG can pre-flight them 18:27:56 ... being devil's advocate specifically wrt default size: A lot of content when 300x150 was defined was in landscape mode. If we did this today would it be 150x300 instead? 18:28:14 ... also, do models have a habit of being boxy, should we consider 300x300 as the default? 18:28:17 q+ 18:28:47 ... weird to specify a weird default that doesn't gain us that much, 99% use case would be using grid/flexbox 18:28:51 ack alcooper 18:29:11 alcooper: I don't think that 300x300 would be odd at all since it makes sense for the default aspect ratio 18:29:32 ada: Potentially worth investigating. Is anyone opposed? 18:29:59 [no vocal objections] 18:31:33 https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/25 18:32:15 Brandel: Described preffered approach for this, depends on what folks want to standardize 18:32:29 .. would be reasonable to allow people to specify pitch (e.g. pulling front up/down). 18:32:36 ... CAD tools support roll, so may also be relevant 18:32:52 ... Could do this possible manually with entity transform 18:33:09 ... Mostly about how to navigate content 18:33:21 ... DO want to define orbit fit so that model can stay within viewport 18:33:47 ... Unsure of other instances in Web Platform where only sometimes read-only 18:34:11 ... in stagemode=orbit this should be readable, but not writable 18:34:36 s/.. w/... w 18:34:46 test 18:35:26 q? 18:35:29 Brandel: how do we present this in a way that is web appropriate? 18:35:58 ... and are there any other reporting flags that we need to apply to be aware of the type of mode that something is in? 18:36:17 ... e.g. if stagemode=orbit is on, then it's an automatic fail, but maybe other signals are relevant as well 18:36:32 Ada: This is a few questions, maybe we can address them individually? 18:36:49 Brandel: Given description of orbit, do we want to do anything else? (e.g. persisting pitch, roll, etc.) 18:37:12 Brandel: If folks aren't implementing it yet, may not have opinions 18:37:21 (Nods from around the room) 18:37:51 cabanier: Having things that are sometimes read-only may not be weird, set value could be "initial", and this wouldn't impact when in orbit mode 18:38:04 q+ 18:38:05 q+ 18:38:27 Brandel: if orbit is active, can't write. Could make "stackable" transforms, but not sure if this is what folks want 18:38:28 q+ 18:38:44 Brandel: Throw errors on DOM Matrices that have e.g. shear or non-scalar mult. So that could be an option 18:38:48 ack ada 18:40:04 Ada: One thing that could be interesting, currently take DOMMatrixReadOnly as the property, what if we don't use `=` for the assignment, and allow a property giving us DOMMatrix vs DOMMatrixReadOnly depending on the mode 18:40:25 ... this might be a way to re-use thigs that are in the platform already 18:40:27 ack bajones 18:40:54 bajones: Using DOMMatrixReadOnly as the mechanism for preventing folks from editing feels reasonable 18:41:03 ... not sure what you mean by not using `=` for assignment? 18:41:39 Ada: currently update entity transform via `model.entityTransform = new DOMMatrix`, but this allows properties that we can't change 18:42:13 ... Might be trickier for implementers, because you need to proxy the DOMMatrix and need a way to update it 18:42:47 q+ 18:43:06 Bajones: In JS you can have an attribute that the setter takes one value and the getter returns another. e.g. return value is always read only but setter is not. 18:43:28 ... Assignment could be required to be a copy, which has unfortunate side-effects, but it is fairly common elsewhere 18:43:43 ... may not be most elegant, but could work, and `get` is always the RO 18:43:48 Brandel: This is how it currently works 18:43:54 Bajones: Not sure how any of this works in idl 18:43:58 ack alcooper 18:44:47 q- 18:44:51 alcooper: I guess the concern I had is that if the general premise of model is something that is more privacy concerning how concerned are we with the state being observable such as they have clicked in or rotated the model. 18:46:44 Brandel: regular pointer events get past through so there is nothing new there, but I don't think there is anything special about entityTransform and that making it unreadable when stageMode is set would be as useful and people could just reroll their own interaction behaviour anyway 18:47:50 Brandel: In general we discussed if entityTransform is a CSS property 18:48:03 ... WebKit folks felt this was not likely worth doing 18:48:20 ... May want to anticipate this, but not appropriate to build right now 18:48:32 joshi: Do we have a roadmap for spatial CSS? 18:48:46 Brandel: Not really. Kind of up to folks in this room/group 18:49:12 ... Need people with time/ability to reason through corner cases. Model is helping this, but likely not all of them 18:49:39 Ada: There's an abandoned detached-element repo, which could be a good starting point for this 18:49:50 ... But not sure anyone is thinking about this right now 18:50:16 Brandel: Have been trying to keep view on absolute model MVP *and* the fact that this is likely not the last thing we do 18:50:18 q+ 18:50:35 ack trevorPicoXR 18:50:39 Brandel: Don't think we can prevent re-work, will have to revise things based on expanding scope of spatial web 18:51:02 trevorPicoXR: Example yesterday was trying to go in this direction, but obviously hindered by existing mechanisms. Would love to hear if there was some way to do this atm 18:51:15 q? 18:51:16 ... standardizing takes a long time, so have to do some of this outside of standard and then bring back to standard 18:51:35 Brandel: Back to sometimes ReadOnly - who do we ask 18:51:51 Ada: Tag is a good fit 18:51:56 s/Tag/TAG 18:52:05 Ada: WhatWG also acceptable 18:52:25 Brandel: Very nearly finished with PR to WhatWG 18:53:06 ... just describing categories of content, etc. Will land it for the presence of the model as well as any appropriate web platform tests 18:53:31 q? 18:53:32 ... When we start looking at next things to land, TAG review would be good to revisit 18:53:56 Ada: Resolution: Wait for WhatWG merge, then ask WhatWG and if no resolution ask TAG 18:54:42 https://github.com/immersive-web/model-element/issues/109 19:12:39 q+ 19:12:43 Brandel has joined #immersive-web 19:12:52 scribenick: cabanier 19:13:05 Brandel: there's context in the issue 19:13:27 ... secure contexts as not disclosing information from the user 19:13:36 ... but model is not that 19:13:48 q+ 19:13:49 ... it's not a feature that needs https 19:14:00 ... people say that new features need to be https 19:14:11 ... localhost is a secure context 19:14:33 ... for the purposes, of a headset is harder to do 19:14:50 ada: on visionOS you can't do port forwarding 19:15:10 Brandel: there's a question on the impact of local development 19:15:22 ack bajones 19:15:22 ... I do see the merits of security requirement 19:15:24 q+ 19:15:55 bajones: on chrome derivates, you can go to flags and you can trigger certain addresses as secure 19:16:06 ... that option is there to make development easy 19:16:20 ... and it's really convenient 19:16:29 ... localhost is a secure context 19:16:50 ... originally when we did WebVR, there was a big push to make it https only 19:17:00 ... and there was a lot of community pushback 19:17:20 ... I got gray hair from these arguments 19:17:40 ... and we go to a point that there were complicated workarounds 19:17:57 ... but when we got to WebXR, nobody seemed to care anymore 19:18:27 ... these day there a lot of development tools to enable https 19:18:33 ... and nobody cares anymore 19:18:50 ... right now webgpu is https only and nobody cares 19:19:18 ... it doesn't hurt us to do https only 19:20:28 ... it feels like attempting to skirt the https trend, is going to cause problems later 19:20:49 ack alcooper 19:21:02 .., I'm in favor of just doing https 19:21:25 alcooper: https still has value in being safer to download content 19:21:26 ack ada 19:21:31 ... so it's no observable 19:21:57 ada: I was thinking of doing http until someone tells us not to 19:22:00 q+ 19:22:26 ... but this is the only html element that would require https 19:22:39 ack alcooper 19:22:42 ... so it would show fallback content when you use http 19:23:04 bajones: any android device would be able to use port forwarding with adb 19:23:24 Brandel: I have not exhausted explored what the public is doing 19:23:44 ada: I used engrok for a while and that worked fine 19:24:17 ... the stuff I use only works on an internal device 19:24:48 ... I hate having to create a local certificate and having to accept each time 19:25:29 Brandel: the conclusion is to add https and if people's flow is hard, we will put the pressure to fix that 19:25:51 ada: anything else? 19:25:57 Brandel: no, I don't think so 19:29:03 topic: [lunch] 19:29:06 rrsagent, publish minutes 19:29:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/19-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi 20:26:41 bajones has joined #Immersive-Web 20:34:08 yonet has joined #immersive-web 20:35:00 lucas has joined #immersive-web 20:35:23 m-alkalbani has joined #immersive-web 20:36:22 Brandel has joined #immersive-web 20:36:34 atsushi has joined #immersive-web 20:37:02 topic: Unconference Hand Meshes from the WebXR API 20:37:09 (semi minuted) 20:37:26 atsushi has joined #immersive-web 20:38:25 q+ 20:38:27 q+ 20:38:27 ack ada 20:38:38 mkeblx has joined #immersive-web 20:39:52 ack Brandel 20:39:56 trevorPicoXR has joined #immersive-web 20:40:04 ack bajones 20:40:22 bajones:OpenXR can now surface models 20:40:46 bajones: apparently unreal uses WebXR-Input-Profiles 20:40:54 q+ 20:42:17 q+ to be a scrooge 20:43:49 q+ 20:45:18 ack alcooper 20:46:29 ack ada 20:46:29 ada, you wanted to be a scrooge 20:47:28 q+ 20:48:05 q+ 20:48:53 2nd bunny sighting 20:49:07 🐇🐇🐇🐇 20:49:43 ack mkeblx 20:49:58 q+ 20:50:08 ack bajones 20:54:08 q- 20:54:26 q+ 20:55:41 ack trevorPicoXR 20:56:36 ack alcooper 20:57:45 q+ 20:58:24 q+ 20:58:35 ack bajones 21:03:15 ack mkeblx 21:14:36 https://github.com/oculus-samples/Unity-DepthAPI?tab=readme-ov-file#7-using-hands-removal 21:15:15 https://developers.meta.com/horizon/documentation/unity/unity-depthapi-hands-removal/ 21:16:55 topic: Unconference: WebXR + HDR 21:17:01 (partially minuted) 21:20:15 bajones: in flat land WebGPU there is a mechanism where you associate the canvas with WebGPU device and you give it a format: RGBA BGRA (both srgb) and FLoat16 (HDR colourspace greater than 0-1) and includes a canvas toneMapping mode standard or extended, standard maps to sRGB and clamps lights greater than 1.0, extended mode will allow colours to extend beyond the standard range the 21:20:17 tonemapping is just whatever the screen does rather than being under developer control. But you don't get anyway to learn what the headroom of the device is. 21:20:43 q+ 21:21:57 bajones: with WebXR and WebGPU you can use the same 3 formats, BGRA, RGBA and Float16 (Float16 doesn't work in Chrome Canary yet) we don't have an equivalent for the canvas toneMapping mode. 21:23:09 ack ada 21:24:44 q 21:24:47 q+ 21:24:51 ack Brandel 21:33:38 topic: Unconference: Shared Anchors 21:44:55 yonet has joined #immersive-web 21:46:31 [break] 21:47:05 cabanier: shared anchors haven't really been feaasible because it is very difficult to set up outside of native experiences. 21:47:43 cabanier: recently the questOS shipped a feature so that headsets in the same space can communicate and set up sharedanchors without using the shared anchor infrastructure 21:48:15 cabanier: i've been looking at setting up a shared reference space with unique ID so you know which users are sharing a reference space 21:49:34 cabanier: we've been experimenting with devs so that you add a feature flag and use a new kind of reference space which will be returned immediately and then reset when it connects and agrees on a shared coordinate space 21:49:53 when the space updates it sends a reset even 21:50:03 s/even/event 21:50:20 q+ to ask if it could ever be cross platform 21:50:55 ack ada 21:50:55 ada, you wanted to ask if it could ever be cross platform 21:51:02 q+ 21:52:06 q+ 21:52:41 cabanier: the underlying shared anchors still use the network so to be x-platform it would need the servers to be able to talk to each other. 21:53:38 q+ to confirm that the reference space is unboduned 21:56:13 ack bajones 21:59:47 ack yonet 21:59:59 q+ 22:01:27