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12:06:06 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:06:26 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-03-13: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Mar/0010.html
12:06:27 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:06:27 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:06:27 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Mar/0010.html
12:54:31 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pmwg
12:54:43 <wendyreid> present+
12:55:12 <ivan> present+
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12:59:30 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
12:59:38 <toshiakikoike> present+
13:00:59 <ivan> present+ shiestyle
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13:02:26 <ivan> present+ SueNeu
13:03:26 <SueNeu> present+
13:03:38 <ivan> present + mgarrish
13:06:06 <ivan> present+ gregorio
13:06:23 <ivan> present+ dlazin
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13:07:28 <gpellegrino> present+
13:07:31 <wendyreid> scribe+ mgarrish
13:07:53 <wendyreid> Topic: Publication Admin
13:07:59 <mgarrish> wendyreid: today's meeting is one part admin and one part discussion about footnotes
13:08:47 <mgarrish> ... the latest version of 3.3 is now published so we can move on 3.4
13:09:36 <mgarrish> ivan: no, what we have now is the proposed corrections
13:09:51 <mgarrish> ... there has been an ac vote on whether this is okay and it closed on Tuesday and it passed
13:09:52 <dlazin> dlazin has joined #pmwg
13:10:08 <mgarrish> ... we have to publish the final draft still where we integrate the changes and that will be the final version
13:10:35 <mgarrish> ... this is informational as Matt and I will take care of publishing it - I have put in the request to publish
13:10:53 <mgarrish> ... we can publish next week or week after but that's still to be determined
13:11:04 <mgarrish> ... so one more version to publish before it's all done
13:11:34 <mgarrish> wendyreid: when 3.3 is published the next thing to do is publish the first public working draft of the 3.4 specs
13:11:45 <mgarrish> ... but we have to resolve to publish and establish the new short names
13:12:16 <mgarrish> ... we will publish epub 3.4, reading systems 3.4, and accessibility 1.1.1
13:13:41 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish the FPWDs of EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1.1, with the shortnames epub-34, epub-rs-34, and epub-a11y-111
13:13:45 <mgarrish> mgarrish: it's problematic to start the accessibility at 1.2 because it involves creating new conformance identifiers
13:13:57 <mgarrish> +1
13:14:09 <ivan> +1
13:14:09 <gpellegrino> +1
13:14:11 <wendyreid> +1
13:14:12 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:14:12 <shiestyle> +1
13:14:15 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:14:15 <SueNeu> +1
13:14:18 <ivan> q+
13:14:26 <dlazin> +1
13:14:35 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish the FPWDs of EPUB 3.4, EPUB Reading Systems 3.4, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1.1, with the shortnames epub-34, epub-rs-34, and epub-a11y-111
13:14:38 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:15:07 <dlazin> present+
13:15:12 <mgarrish> ivan: to create the short names we need an approval to publish the FPWDs of the specifications
13:15:36 <mgarrish> ... recommend we publish 3.3 at the same time to signal that 3.3 is done and we're starting the 3.4 line
13:16:06 <mgarrish> ... I would propose the 27th to publish so that we have time to prepare
13:16:36 <mgarrish> ... it is a significant message to get out that 3.3 is final and will no longer change
13:16:40 <SueNeu> q+
13:16:44 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:16:48 <mgarrish> ... would be good to have a blog post to point this out
13:17:05 <mgarrish> SueNeu: I can write a post but need info on how to do it
13:17:31 <mgarrish> ivan: w3c has a blog that we use - Coralie likes to have a review before anything goes out
13:17:57 <mgarrish> wendyreid: let's work together on this
13:19:16 <ivan> q+
13:19:17 <mgarrish> ... the last thing in terms of admin is to request a current link to the latest epub 3 version
13:19:37 <mgarrish> ... propose to add TR/epub3 and TR/epub-3
13:19:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:20:07 <mgarrish> ... would redirect to 3.3 for now and then 3.4 when it becomes the new standard
13:20:35 <mgarrish> ivan: it will point to 3.3 as long as we are in working draft. once we reach candidate recommendation then it will point to 3.4
13:21:10 <mgarrish> ... if we want to be stricter and only change at REC I can try and push for that but otherwise it would change at CR
13:21:35 <mgarrish> wendyreid: I think it's worth asking because publishing likes to see RECs and don't consider CRs stable enough
13:21:42 <SueNeu> q+
13:21:49 <mgarrish> ... that's if it's not too much work for the w3c team to do this
13:21:58 <SueNeu> +1
13:22:01 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:22:26 <mgarrish> SueNeu: I agree with Wendy that it makes me nervous to look at the less-than-final spec as current version
13:22:45 <wendyreid> Proposed: Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification
13:23:18 <wendyreid> Proposed: Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub, w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification
13:23:31 <ivan> +1
13:23:33 <SueNeu> +1
13:23:34 <shiestyle> +1
13:23:35 <dlazin> +1
13:23:36 <gpellegrino> +1
13:23:36 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:23:39 <wendyreid> +1
13:23:43 <mgarrish> +1
13:23:44 <mgarrish> q+
13:23:48 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:24:00 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Request new URL redirects for w3.org/TR/epub, w3.org/TR/epub3 and w3.org/TR/epub-3 to always point to the latest recommendation status version of the EPUB3 specification
13:24:08 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:24:12 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:24:42 <wendyreid> mgarrish: /epub would always point to the latest version of EPUB, 3 or a future version
13:24:56 <wendyreid> ivan: Yes
13:25:31 <wendyreid> Topic: Footnotes in EPUB3 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2690
13:25:55 <mgarrish> wendyreid: there has been a discussion on the mailing list about footnotes
13:26:41 <mgarrish> ... I don't know that we have to worry about the pop-up part but there is not a single recommended way to tag footnotes in epub
13:27:03 <mgarrish> ... reading systems have had to figure out the tagging to create their interfaces
13:27:31 <mgarrish> ... on kobo we have a very convoluted system to create footnotes
13:27:59 <mgarrish> ... we've never made a recommendation on how to create footnotes in a standard way
13:28:12 <mgarrish> ... can we do something about this and what do we recommend?
13:28:18 <mgarrish> q+
13:28:20 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:28:52 <wendyreid> mgarrish: Don't know if I have good answers, I was just going to say is that the unfortunate part is that this is by design, but the vocab was there for people to do something
13:29:10 <wendyreid> ... we left it open intentionally, but now it's probably time to standardize on something
13:29:27 <wendyreid> ... how do we consolidate in a way that doesn't invalidate prior implementations
13:29:29 <wendyreid> q+
13:29:45 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:30:22 <mgarrish> wendyreid: this is broader epub trap we set for ourselves in terms of not telling people how to create their content and only giving them tools to help them
13:30:35 <mgarrish> ... we have a constellation of options for creating footnotes
13:31:09 <mgarrish> ... we should say how to create footnotes but not invalidate previous methods - have to avoid MUSTs that would invalidate content
13:31:31 <mgarrish> ... reading systems will have to support the old ways that people have used
13:31:45 <ivan> q+
13:31:47 <mgarrish> ... we can give guidance on the new best way to create footnotes
13:31:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:32:12 <SueNeu> q+
13:32:15 <mgarrish> ivan: as an outsider, what is the difference between footnotes and the footer element
13:32:28 <mgarrish> wendyreid: footnote is more like an aside
13:32:30 <mgarrish> q+
13:32:33 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:32:36 <mgarrish> q-
13:33:08 <mgarrish> SueNeu: as someone who creates ebooks I would appreciate clarification - hard to explain to customers that we don't know how these will work
13:33:20 <mgarrish> ... constraints aren't always bad for creativity
13:33:30 <mgarrish> ... can we do human testing to see what works best for people?
13:34:02 <mgarrish> wendyreid: interesting questions - it would be helpful to look at how the different platforms handle footnotes
13:34:23 <mgarrish> ... some pop the content up rather than taking you to another place in the book but it may not be the only way
13:34:46 <mgarrish> ... is there feedback on the accessibility of the pop ups
13:35:08 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: skippability is an important issue with them
13:36:07 <mgarrish> ... one issue here is that indesign is tagging these and not getting the right semantics but we've been working with them so they are just footnotes and not specifically pop ups
13:36:44 <mgarrish> ... we should give maybe guidelines on how to author and display footnotes - what happens with backlinks for example if it is a pop up
13:37:06 <mgarrish> ... should the backlink be hidden in these cases
13:38:15 <mgarrish> wendyreid: one challenge we've run into in making them inclusive is if there is an internal link we would sometimes assume short text was a footnote reference
13:38:44 <mgarrish> ... some more research on this would help to establish the current landscape for footnotes
13:39:04 <gpellegrino> q+
13:39:10 <wendyreid> ack gp
13:39:30 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: I opened an issue about extended descriptions that is similar to this
13:39:36 <mgarrish> q+
13:39:47 <mgarrish> ... we should have guidance for all these general elements
13:39:49 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:40:15 <wendyreid> mgarrish: One thing we might also want to look at is errors, do they need to be in the same file, a different file, do we need to make this clear?
13:40:30 <wendyreid> ... potential confusion point, do you expect the RS to go to a different place
13:41:01 <mgarrish> wendyreid: some publishers make a file for each footnote and put them at the end of the spine
13:41:11 <ivan> q+
13:41:27 <wendyreid> mgarrish: Similar to descriptions too, put at the end of the file
13:41:32 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:41:35 <mgarrish> mgarrish: this also happens with image descriptions
13:42:04 <mgarrish> ivan: what can the epub specification do about this? reading systems tend to go their own way
13:42:30 <mgarrish> wendyreid: as an implementor it would be helpful to have a reliable way to detect footnotes and creat behaviours
13:42:43 <SueNeu> q+
13:42:46 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:42:52 <mgarrish> q+
13:43:05 <mgarrish> SueNeu: knowing what markup is easiest to display will help
13:43:09 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:43:38 <wendyreid> mgarrish: The more technical, document writing approach to the question, is this something that goes into the specification or into notes or best practices
13:43:45 <wendyreid> ... we're trying not to invalidate anything
13:43:59 <wendyreid> ... where does this belong, should we look at notes, but we can figure that out as we go
13:44:38 <mgarrish> wendyreid: there are probably several other things that fall into this category of how best to do these things
13:45:10 <mgarrish> ... when we have that list of items and the expectations then we can decide if it is best practices or new sections in the specifications
13:45:27 <mgarrish> ... we can go either way but we've identified a need for clarification
13:46:13 <mgarrish> ... please log more issues if you know other content types with the same kinds of problems
13:46:53 <mgarrish> ivan: we'll probably want to pick this up again when more people on the mailing list are present
13:46:59 <gpellegrino> q+ off topic about the W3C calendar
13:47:14 <mgarrish> wendyreid: we should also take this to the community group to get their input
13:47:19 <wendyreid> Topic: AOB
13:48:20 <mgarrish> gpellegrino: I have a question about the w3c calendar - if I download the invitation is points me to the first meeting we had - not updating to the weekly meeting
13:48:53 <mgarrish> ivan: I subscribe to the calendar in apple calendar and you should get automatic updates
14:03:18 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/13-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:03:47 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:03:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items