16:57:55 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:57:59 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/13-aria-irc 16:57:59 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:58:00 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:58:03 chair: JamesNurthen 16:58:08 agendabot, find agenda 16:58:08 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:58:08 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e5c2b1c4-6993-483f-a624-cb260c163e44/20250313T130000/ 16:58:08 clear agenda 16:58:08 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=no:milestone+is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-06+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fhtml-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fsvg-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics- 16:58:11 … aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fmathml-aam&type=Issues 16:58:13 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-06+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues 16:58:17 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 16:58:19 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:58:22 agenda+ -> Adding code documentation for AAMs https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2461 16:58:25 agenda+ -> Consider supporting multiline comboboxes https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2456 16:58:28 agenda+ -> Group as allowed acc child of role menu if acc child of menuitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2438 16:58:31 agenda+ -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402 16:58:34 agenda+ -> Document interop of misspelled aria-labeledby and its conflict resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2093 16:58:59 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:00:55 Adam_Page has joined #aria 17:01:03 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:01:11 present+ 17:01:49 zakk has joined #aria 17:02:12 present+ 17:02:17 present+ 17:02:17 present+ 17:02:28 present+ 17:03:39 katez has joined #aria 17:03:42 present+ 17:03:44 scribe: Rahim 17:03:49 zakim, next item 17:03:49 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=no:milestone+is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-06+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcor 17:03:52 ... e-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fhtml-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fsvg-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics- -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:04:09 present+ 17:05:23 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:05:31 present+ Daniel 17:05:41 jamesn: For accname #250, doesn't look like accname issue. Should this be in HTML-AAM? 17:05:47 present+ 17:06:19 Scott: Don't see a problem with this being referenced in accname, but shouldn't be incorporated into accname. They've been separate for a reason 17:06:38 jamesn: do you want to answer this, Scott? 17:06:48 ...I will assign it to myself and close it 17:07:03 scott has joined #aria 17:07:23 present+ 17:07:23 jamesn: ARIA #2475, #2470 and 2467 are all editorial 17:07:27 zakim, next item 17:07:27 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-03-06+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:07:53 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:08:16 pkra has joined #aria 17:08:20 Francis_Storr: For ARIA PR #2477, I'm updating all the WCAG references from 2.1 -> 2.2 17:08:22 present+ 17:08:24 present+ 17:09:41 jamesn: there may be a way in ReSpec to reference it without putting in absolute reference (if URL changes, better to not have it hard-coded) 17:09:49 Daniel: I can do that 17:10:11 ...assign it to me (and reviewer) 17:11:46 Francis_Storr: on index.html, there is an NSAccessibility link that may need updating 17:11:54 jcraig: you can add me as a reviewer 17:12:52 keithamus: for ARIA #2474, this is for ReferenceTarget 17:13:33 Rahim: please keep me as reviewer as well 17:13:52 zakim, next item 17:13:52 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:14:39 scott: has command/commandfor landed? 17:14:45 keithamus: yes, it's already in Chrome 17:15:03 scott: since it's landed, then other implementors will implement this right? 17:15:17 keithamus: ready to ship in safari, Firefox needs more work 17:16:24 ...there are internal Chrome tests but don't think WPT can represent details relationships (or expanded) 17:17:13 jcraig: as long as there are two implementations passing, then it should be merged 17:17:38 ...that's why the ARIA spec change may be held back if the a11y fixes haven't been made in at least two different implementations 17:17:57 keithamus: are you saying it should be a normative change (depending on what browser's do)? 17:18:23 jcraig: the ARIA merge path (process) is put in WPT changes; if there are no changes it's a moot point but wait for 2 implementations to pass before merging into spec 17:18:50 keithamus: there are no WPTs we've written; if possible, happy to write tests. There are internal Chrome tests which I can point people to 17:18:59 jcraig: seems fine as far as Scott's PR 17:19:12 Scott: this is the PR that Keith and I worked on, unsure what to do at this point 17:19:17 q+ 17:19:46 jcraig: anytime I make a spec change with WPT test, I make sure to file a11y specific bugs for all 3 engines 17:20:13 ....if there's a gap in a11y implementation, file a placeholder bug (i.e., make this change in WebKit/Firefox, etc.) 17:21:34 pkra: back to process document, we require 1 implementation to merge, and implementation commitment from 2 browsers 17:22:31 keithamus: command/commandfor is shipping in Chrome/WebKit 17:22:32 ack pkra 17:23:05 scott9 has joined #aria 17:23:06 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2354 17:23:13 Scott: I don't have any approving reviewers for ARIA PR #2354 17:23:59 jamesn: do we need to re-request reviews? 17:24:13 Scott: I've already sent the request, thanks everyone 17:25:45 TOPIC: WPT 17:26:45 pkra: I rebased PRs that I could do because we rolled out prettier formatting for ARIA spec; those seeing changes should take a look 17:27:06 zakim, next item 17:27:06 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:29:07 jamesn: we're still trying to get a time for the accname whitespace discussion. Is there anything else we need to schedule (for an Australia convenient time) 17:29:19 giacomo-petri: the SVG deepdive is already scheduled for next week 17:29:51 ...question: am I expected to present anything since it's mainly an implementor's discussion? 17:30:24 jamesn: my expectation for deepdive is that they have a general idea of what they want to get out of the session, i.e., something that drives discussion along 17:30:35 ...make some progress and a direction that you'd like to see progress go 17:32:38 jcraig: like at TPAC and the ARIA IDL presentation. Pre-preparation to familiarize yourself enough with the topic, and proposed solution forward (even if people disagree) 17:33:18 ...whitespace issue is almost as complex as IDL issue 17:33:42 jamesn: need to be careful of putting high bar on these 17:34:22 agenda? 17:34:30 ...having summary in issue in advance is valuable as well. We should expect people to familiarize yourself with the issue before attending a deepdive otherwise, it's a waste of time 17:34:49 zakim ,next item 17:34:55 zakim, next item 17:34:55 agendum 5 -- -> Adding code documentation for AAMs https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2461 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:36:33 q+ 17:36:57 Rahim: it may be valuable to have more robust documentation on how spec is implemented, and differences between browser engines 17:37:26 q? 17:37:47 ....was thinking of a more self-contained resource (not inline to mappings). E.g., linking to a class that handles html-aam mappings 17:37:56 q+ 17:38:34 jcraig: if I'm understanding correctly, this sounds like it's more details about the implementation stack (not just mappings which is not sufficient to implement fully) 17:38:34 q+ 17:38:51 ack jcraig 17:39:20 q+ 17:39:22 ...not enough to make an implementation of an accessible browser; because there are new browsers (e.g., Ladybird), a baseline documenting a11y implementation would be helpful 17:39:23 ack scott9 17:39:26 ack scott 17:40:10 ack me 17:40:13 Scott: not necessarily inline with mappings, but kind of like how we link to other specs maybe it could be part of an introductory section (e.g., 1.1) 17:40:30 jamesn: could we start by collating stuff in the wiki and deciding where we want to put it? 17:40:48 jcraig: fair, also recommend getting Mike Smith involved who's working on Ladybird 17:41:34 ...there's a limited number of browser a11y engineers figuring this out and reverse-engineering source code. Because Mike is working on this, he would be the perfect resource to determine what could be documented 17:42:21 keithamus: I'm not against the idea, but curious about the utility. Anyone writing a browser will look at existing implementations; is it worth the effort to do this (may not be) 17:42:53 ...where do you start? on the other hand, Chrome's documentation on a11y architecture is pretty good 17:43:00 jcraig: maybe link to existing one, if there is one 17:43:49 ...good to have an overview of the differences, and heuristics, so there can be more robust experience across web platform and browsers 17:44:12 keithamus: I'm for that but the act of specifying things; where there are gaps, should be producing specs and pouring energy into tests 17:44:38 ....easy to link to documentation but if this is significant time spent, may be better spent on encouraging authors to write WPTs and assert on interop issues 17:44:53 ...documentation is good, but specs/tests are how we align 17:45:37 jcraig: part of it is also determining what needs to be tested; e.g., Acacia. Is it set up to do cross-platform a11y notification...could lead to new testing methods in WPT as well 17:46:31 ...providing pointers to different places for Mac/Windows/Linux for browsers, would be helpful to people like Mike and those interested to browser engineering and possibly contributing 17:46:57 ...could start in a wiki 17:48:01 jamesn: feel free to create a page in the Wiki 17:48:16 jcraig: Scott/Rahim, have you talked to Mike? Good idea to follow up with him 17:49:47 zakim, next item 17:49:47 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim 17:49:55 q? 17:50:03 ack keithamus 17:50:05 zakim, next item 17:50:05 agendum 6 -- -> Consider supporting multiline comboboxes https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2456 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:51:10 Scott: the person that originally opened the issue, he has commented. I've asked him to create a prototype showing what you're trying to do. Someone could work around this issue (e.g., using `contenteditable`) 17:51:34 ...issue was `role="combobox"` didn't work on a `