14:40:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:40:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/10-coga-irc
14:40:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:40:11 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:40:11 <Lisa> Q?
14:40:18 <Lisa> agenda?
14:57:17 <Charli> Charli has joined #coga
15:06:46 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #coga
15:06:49 <julierawe> prsent+
15:06:53 <julierawe> present+
15:09:08 <Lisa> scribe: Julie
15:09:16 <Lisa> next item
15:10:10 <julierawe> Lisa I created this spreadsheet to find a time to convert Content Usable into the new template
15:10:20 <julierawe> Lisa People can fill it in
15:11:10 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #coga
15:11:17 <Frankie> present+
15:11:17 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #COGA
15:11:22 <julierawe> q+
15:11:23 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:11:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa
15:11:35 <Lisa> ack next
15:11:57 <kirkwood> present+
15:12:43 <julierawe> julierawe We should find a time when Frankie is available
15:20:12 <kirkwood> present+
15:24:29 <Lisa> next item
15:24:41 <julierawe> Lisa We've identified Thursday, March 20 at 9am PT, 12pm ET, 6pm Israel time
15:24:56 <julierawe> Lisa We identified a phrase but not everyone was on the call
15:25:18 <julierawe> Lisa We made a table of phraes to consider
15:25:38 <Frankie> link to this document?
15:26:03 <julierawe> Lisa We need a phrase that works regardless of where you are in the world. For example, "learning disabilities" is problematic because it means different things in different place
15:26:18 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FkyRIP3CAuZ-JAazUOAUI64TYCrEfOkKSeBg94mMOkg/edit?resourcekey=0-HM4QyycKbkfCwWAXzIymrw&tab=t.0
15:26:27 <julierawe> Lisa We need to use "disabilities" so legal protections will apply
15:27:31 <Charli> I've requested access.
15:27:49 <julierawe> Lisa Frankie did an experiment of rewriting in a few places and found some challenges
15:28:39 <julierawe> Lisa We liked the European phrase "cognitive accessibility"
15:29:10 <julierawe> Lisa We thought we could have some things accompany it, such as a pop-up list that includes examples of what kinds of disabilities are covered under this term
15:29:34 <julierawe> Lisa We like the shift toward short/positive and could have a longer version in the introduction
15:30:38 <julierawe> Lisa We have also been looking at our issue papers and think that "Many people who need cognitive accessibility" may sound convoluted or difficult
15:31:06 <julierawe> Charli "Cognitive accessibility" does not include the word "disabilities"
15:31:28 <julierawe> Charli I need clarification
15:31:47 <julierawe> Lisa Most of us want the word "disability" in
15:32:14 <julierawe> Frankie My position is trying to use one phrase everywhere is not helpful
15:33:14 <julierawe> kirkwood I agree.
15:34:12 <julierawe> kirkwood "disability" is very important when talking about courts and reasonable efforts to remove barriers
15:34:32 <julierawe> kirkwood There is some question as to whether "impairment" counts as a disability
15:35:31 <julierawe> kirkwood I would lean toward "cognitive impairment" and "cognitive disability" so we don't lose the ability to have a court read this and recognize it as needing protection from discrimination
15:35:38 <Charli> impairment means different things in social model vs medical model of disability.
15:36:13 <julierawe> Frankie I don't understand why we're trying to use one phrase. This is not a normative document. This is supplemental guidance.
15:36:38 <julierawe> Frankie We don't have to have "disability" or "accessibility" in every sentence. That makes it hard to read.
15:37:38 <julierawe> Lisa I disagree that the legal piece isn't important.
15:38:06 <julierawe> Frankie It sounds like we're trying to come up with a phrase to use in a lot of places.
15:38:54 <julierawe> Lisa Sometimes we say "this helps people with memory impairments." We don't always need the broad phrase of "cognitive and learning disabilities."
15:39:11 <julierawe> Lisa We do sometimes need to use a broad phrase.
15:39:54 <julierawe> Lisa We've talked about "cognitive accessibility" as a good phrase, but sometimes it won't work. Sometimes we need to talk about users with disabilities.
15:42:08 <julierawe> q+
15:42:39 <Lisa> ack next
15:46:30 <Charli> q+
15:48:23 <julierawe> Charli suggested changing "People who use assistive technology" to "People with disabilities"
15:48:37 <julierawe> Lisa This document is about people with cognitive disabilities
15:48:52 <julierawe> Charli We don't have to use a long phrase every time
15:49:22 <julierawe> Lisa This is just one example
15:49:30 <julierawe> q+
15:50:02 <julierawe> Lisa Sometimes we're going to need to say "People with cognitive and learning disabilities"
15:50:20 <julierawe> Lisa What phrase do we use? That's the question
15:50:39 <julierawe> Charli Isn't "learning disability" a type of cognitive disability?
15:50:59 <julierawe> Lisa According to the WHO, "cognitive disability" has narrow definition
15:51:14 <julierawe> Lisa "learning disability" means different things in the US, Australia, etc
15:51:35 <julierawe> Lisa Sometimes we need to specify the subset and sometimes we want to use a broad phrase
15:51:42 <Charli> Can we include a glossary in the document?
15:51:50 <Lisa> ack next
15:51:54 <julierawe> q-
15:52:42 <julierawe> q+
15:52:46 <Lisa> ack next
15:53:17 <Frankie> "people with disabilities" is inclusive of cognitive, learning, and mental health disabilities as well
15:54:04 <Frankie> This section is about design patterns--designers will be expecting action-oriented wording in documentation.
15:54:22 <Lisa> +1 to julie
15:54:42 <julierawe> julierawe We want to make sure this document feels focused on the disabilities that COGA is focused on
15:55:19 <julierawe> Frankie I was focused on parts that are telling designers what to do so these parts should be more action-oriented.
15:55:56 <julierawe> Frankie When people look for how-to content, they want action-oriented information.
15:56:48 <julierawe> Frankie I'm not trying to erase anyone. I'm trying remove negative emphasis on humans. I'm trying to focus on action and not include wording that is harmful.
15:58:50 <julierawe> Lisa  It's not personal. Everyone is trying their best. We're trying to work with the phrase "cognitive accessibility" and also like the idea of using different phrases in different places, but still use the word "disabilities." But we still need a phrase for when we're talking about the broad scope of this document.
15:58:57 <Lisa> +1
15:59:07 <Charli> What about "cognitive and related disabilities"?
15:59:25 <julierawe> Lisa Does everyone agree we need a phrase for when we're talking about the broad scope of this document?
15:59:54 <julierawe> Lisa "cognitive and related disabilities" is narrow, would not typically include learning differences
16:00:14 <julierawe> Lisa "cognitive and related disabilities" would include traumatic brain injury, for example
16:00:56 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
16:01:04 <Jan> present+
16:01:05 <julierawe> Lisa Does everyone agree with these three things: (1) We like the phrase "cognitive accessibility" (2) We like the idea of using different phrases in different places, but still use the word "disabilities." (3) We still need a phrase for when we're talking about the broad scope of this document.
16:01:11 <julierawe> +1
16:01:27 <Frankie> +1 to Julie's proposal
16:01:30 <Charli> +1 to what Julie just typed
16:01:33 <Jan> +1
16:01:34 <Lisa> any disageement
16:01:35 <julierawe> kirkwood And we think "cognitive and learning disabilities" is not broad enough?
16:01:51 <julierawe> Lisa Not broad enough to include mental health
16:02:06 <julierawe> Jan Is there any sentence that "cognitive" encompasses everything?
16:02:13 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:02:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa
16:02:48 <julierawe> Lisa No, a lot of people will see "cognitive impairment" and think it only includes "mild cognitive impairment" and "dementia" and mild cognitive impairment is a precursor to dementia
16:03:03 <julierawe> Lisa The WHO has a  very narrow definition
16:03:58 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/10-coga-minutes.html julierawe