14:44:23 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:44:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-irc 14:44:34 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:44:46 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250306T150000/ 14:44:46 clear agenda 14:44:46 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:44:46 agenda+ Action Items 14:44:48 agenda+ Info Share 14:44:50 agenda+ Review RADAR 14:44:52 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:44:52 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:44:55 agenda+ Specdev and "Typographic Unit" PR 14:44:57 agenda+ I18N Glossary Options 14:44:59 agenda+ AOB? 14:45:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:50:56 agenda+ local fonts vs privacy: activity#1988 (css#11648) 14:50:59 Issue 11648 not found 14:50:59 Issue 1988 not found 14:57:15 present+ Addison 14:59:46 JcK has joined #i18n 15:01:36 nmccully has joined #i18n 15:01:55 present+ Nat, Richard, JcK, Fuqiao 15:02:25 scribe+ 15:02:38 agenda? 15:02:41 Issue 1988 not found 15:02:41 Issue 11648 not found 15:03:52 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:03:54 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:04:42 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:04:42 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:04:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 15:04:55 #160 15:04:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/160 -> Action 160 review graphemes in specdev and add balinese example and otherwise fix the text (on aphillips) due 2025-03-06 15:05:12 #159 15:05:13 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/159 -> Action 159 write up proposal for specdev char-string section, adding material that deals with the encoding interface et al (on aphillips) due 2025-02-27 15:05:40 addison: #159 is related to another agenda item 15:05:46 #157 15:05:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 -> Action 157 write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options (on aphillips) due 2025-02-20 15:06:04 ... #157 is on the agenda today 15:06:09 #135 15:06:10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 15:06:14 agenda+ How to make list markers stand upright in vertical text 15:06:24 #127 15:06:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 15:06:48 #89 15:06:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 15:07:00 ... #135, starting trading some Slack conversation with Manish, still pending 15:07:00 #33 15:07:00 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:07:10 #7 15:07:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 15:07:24 #4 15:07:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 15:07:31 present+ 15:07:51 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:07:51 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:08:34 addison: in a very short period of time the USA will switch to DST 15:08:59 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2025JanMar/0055.html 15:09:06 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/definitions-characters/index.en.html 15:09:32 r12a: did everybody read it and think it was okay? 15:10:08 (note to self: steal richard's version of the family emoji for specdev) 15:10:13 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/definitions-characters/index.en.html#characters 15:10:23 ... here's the direct link 15:10:26 ... what I changed ^ 15:10:37 atsushi has joined #i18n 15:12:53 [Discuss emoji issues in specdev] 15:13:09 https://deploy-preview-153--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#characters 15:13:21 https://deploy-preview-153--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#family-example 15:15:29 https://emojipedia.org/family#designs 15:16:34 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:16:34 agendum 4 -- Review RADAR -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:16:41 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 15:17:06 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:17:06 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:17:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 15:17:39 agenda? 15:17:41 Issue 1988 not found 15:17:42 Issue 11648 not found 15:17:46 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:17:46 agendum 6 -- Specdev and "Typographic Unit" PR -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:17:50 addison: pending issues, nothing super exciting here, except the one with agenda+ 15:17:57 ... which I've added to the agenda 15:18:01 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/153 15:18:01 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/153 -> Pull Request 153 Replace Bangla example, replace user-perceived character (by aphillips) 15:18:14 https://deploy-preview-153--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#characters 15:19:00 addison: there are two primary changes 15:19:10 ... we'll start with the first one, which is characters 15:19:44 ... the goal here was to replace our use of grapheme and glyph and such with the term typographical unit 15:19:58 Specifications SHOULD use the term code point instead of the term 'character'. If the term 'character' is used, it MUST be explicitly defined to mean a Unicode code point. The term Unicode Scalar Value MAY also be used. 15:19:59 ... or the term user perceived character with typographical unit 15:20:46 (the old: Specifications SHOULD explicitly define the term 'character' to mean a Unicode code point.) 15:21:43 nmccully: I'm wondering, did anyone raise concern that typographical unit is often used for measurement and not linguistic character 15:21:58 xfq: yes, people in clreq TF also raised this concern before 15:22:21 Specifications SHOULD explicitly define the term 'character' to mean a Unicode code point. 15:22:29 nmccully: I find it to be more opaque than grapheme cluster or linguistic character unit 15:22:36 https://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-glossary/#dfn-typographic-character-unit 15:22:49 ... typographic unit to me is a upm or a point or something like that 15:22:53 addison: that's fair 15:23:20 r12a: but we do mean something that is kind of vague and not clearly defined and may change in different places 15:23:26 ... similar to the CSS definition 15:23:42 ... the this is viewed from the user's point of view rather than from a machine point of view 15:23:49 nmccully: yeah, that's a good point 15:24:27 addison: you're trying to say grapheme cluster but not exactly Unicode's grapheme cluster because that turns out to be problematic sometimes 15:25:02 r12a: we're trying to get away from the implementation 15:25:17 ... this could be just writing on a piece of paper 15:25:26 nmccully: ok, so character unit 15:25:36 r12a: yeah, but then it sounds like a single code point 15:25:41 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:25:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:26:03 https://deploy-preview-153--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#characters 15:27:19 addison: if you look at example 7, we go back to the Hindi thing and we show the syllables as well as the syllables typographical units with one of them highlighted and we show that that's broken into underlying characters 15:27:31 nmccully: I think I would call that a typographic character 15:28:06 ... it's unit in the other sense of the term 15:28:18 r12a: which is probably the most widespread use of the term 15:28:23 nmccully: for British people 15:28:36 nmccully: what's wrong with 'character'? 15:29:30 nmccully: I've tried not to say a 'Unicode character' because character can to some people mean accented E or whatever and it's more than one Unicode code point 15:30:29 nmccully: the other thing that bothers me is you're talking about typographic when you want to refer to writing too 15:30:49 'visual unit' 15:30:50 addison: visible text unit? 15:31:18 https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/#typographic_units 15:31:48 addison: we don't expect people to use this term, whatever term we choose 15:31:52 https://deploy-preview-153--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_truncation 15:32:06 xfq: our LE index already uses this term as its section name 15:32:30 addison: should we try visible text units? 15:32:42 nat: it's a bit better for me 15:32:58 addison: all right, I will make that change and try this again 15:33:17 ... let me point out the other section that got changed here 15:33:36 ... in 6.5 Truncating or limiting the length of strings 15:34:18 r12a: I think the example could be better if you went one byte further 15:34:49 ... in the English I would say "I can eat glass," 15:36:11 addison: this needs more work 15:36:19 ... good suggestions 15:36:37 ... maybe I'll unbox the example and just have it be plain text 15:36:56 In an earlier example (Example 9), the composed "family" emoji sequence "๐Ÿ‘จโ€๐Ÿ‘ฉโ€๐Ÿ‘งโ€๐Ÿ‘ง" consists of 7 code points. The byte limit of 15 truncates after the second family member: "๐Ÿ‘จโ€๐Ÿ‘ฉโ€". 15:37:22 nmccully has joined #i18n 15:37:22 agenda? 15:37:26 Issue 11648 not found 15:37:26 Issue 1988 not found 15:37:35 zakim, take up agendum 10 15:37:35 agendum 10 -- How to make list markers stand upright in vertical text -- taken up [from r12a] 15:37:49 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-upright-counters-in-vertical.html#additional_styling 15:38:20 r12a: this is about the whole article, but I've zoomed in on a particular place ^ 15:38:27 ... where I've just made some changes 15:38:39 ... I had only one outstanding issue after sending this out for review 15:38:52 ... it was to do with the properties that you can apply 15:39:06 ... the CSS styles that you can apply to the ::marker pseudo element 15:39:43 ... originally I had just said CSS allows you to apply these properties and that was it 15:39:56 ... Blink allows you to do more properties than that 15:40:08 ... and some of these properties are not supported in Safari 15:40:24 interactive text: https://w3c.github.io/i18n-tests/exploratory/index.html?text=%3Col%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22color%22%3Ecolor%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22content%22%3Econtent%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22fontstyle%22%3Efont-style%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22fontvariant%22%3Efont-variant%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22fontweight%22%3Efont-weight%3C%2Fl 15:40:24 i%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22fontfamily%22%3Efont-family%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22direction%22%3Edirection%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22textshadow%22%3Etext-shadow%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3Cli%20id%3D%22texttransform%22%3Etext-transform%3C%2Fli%3E%0A%3C%2Fol%3E&css=.test%20li%20%7B%20list-style-type%3A%20lower-alpha%3B%20margin-inline-start%3A%203rem%3B%20%7D% 15:40:24 0A%23color%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20color%3A%20lightgreen%3B%20%7D%0A%23content%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20content%3A%20%27%40.%20%27%3B%20%7D%0A%23fontstyle%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20font-style%3A%20italic%3B%20%7D%0A%23fontvariant%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20font-variant%3A%20small-caps%3B%20%7D%0A%23fontweight%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20font-weight%3A%20bold%3B%20%7D%0A%23fontf 15:40:24 amily%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20font-family%3A%20Consolas%2C%20%27Andale%20Mono%27%2C%20%27Lucida%20Console%27%2C%20%27Lucida%20Sans%20Typewriter%27%2C%20Monaco%2C%20%27Courier%20New%27%2C%20%27monospace%27%3B%20%7D%0A%23direction%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20direction%3A%20rtl%3B%20%7D%0A%23textshadow%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20text-shadow%3A%200%200%205px%3B%20%7D%0A% 15:40:26 23texttransform%3A%3Amarker%20%7B%20text-transform%3A%20uppercase%3B%20%7D%0A&fontSize=36&width=500&height=500&a=Various%20styles%20indicated%20in%20the%20CSS%20spec%20are%20supported%20for%20%3A%3Amarker.&i=Test%20passes%20if%20you%20see%20the%20expected%20styling%20for%20each%20line. 15:40:38 ... there's a link that goes to a test that I put together this morning which you might find of interest if you click on that link 15:40:49 s/interactive text/interactive test/ 15:41:23 ... that's the latest edition 15:41:36 ... otherwise I'm hoping that this article is now stable enough 15:41:44 ... to publish 15:42:20 nmccully: the only objections I would raise are to encourage the particular choice of numbering you've done for vertical is IMO not the mainstream 15:42:47 ... I think jlreq plans to talk about this in terms of what is more traditional 15:42:50 agenda? 15:42:52 Issue 11648 not found 15:42:52 Issue 1988 not found 15:43:11 r12a: good suggestion, I can add that 15:43:22 addison: anybody object to our publishing this? 15:43:36 ... right, thank you, r12a, for all your work on this 15:43:45 ... this is really good stuff as usual 15:44:12 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-the-q-element.en.html 15:44:20 r12a: just so you're aware, there's another one on the boil that might take as long as well 15:44:25 ... which is about the q element 15:44:55 ... I haven't uploaded the latest version 15:45:24 ... fantasai and florian had a long conversation about that and came up with "well, this is what the CSS ought to look like" 15:45:33 ... but it's sort of future 15:45:39 ... it's not even in the spec yet 15:45:55 ... with the match-parent and stuff like that and auto values 15:46:10 ... so I have to figure out what you can do in the meantime to make this work 15:46:24 ... and I'm not quite sure how to do it 15:46:35 ... but I wanted to let you know that I'm working on that 15:46:52 ... I should update the draft 15:47:20 nmccully: Korean @@ French not using thin space etc. 15:47:42 r12a: I should redo that example 15:47:42 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:47:42 agendum 7 -- I18N Glossary Options -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:47:54 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jGup6Z9dO0OAeSfM6zZhTeT_E5eM9lDOVWo_Ec37mn0/edit 15:48:22 addison: I had an action to look at different ways we've been discussing what to do with the i18n glossary 15:48:34 ... and pulling together some different options 15:48:58 ... four things I could think of based on our previous conversation for what to do with the glossary 15:49:01 ... see ^ 15:50:31 ... the history is we have this glossary document, and we tell people to link to terms in it when they need it 15:50:56 ... like you need to say 'locale' and your spec has nothing to do with locales but you need to link to a def 15:51:04 ... link to ours, it's exported 15:51:08 ... it's easy to get 15:51:19 ... it works automatically in respec and bikeshed 15:51:43 ... but those tools produce a warning when you do that in a normative block because our glossary is a note 15:52:06 ... but we would like to provide people a way to use our jargon 'code point' 15:52:22 ... effectively without having to copy the def into every single spec 15:52:37 #155 15:52:37 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/155 -> CLOSED Action 155 review glossary definitions for normativity or candidates for normativity (on aphillips) due 2025-01-23 15:52:38 ... and when we change the def, go hunt all those people down and fix it 15:53:25 r12a: I think part of the homework here was actually to derive a list of which of these things needed to be normative 15:54:09 addison: one of the things that's interesting is the Unicode glossary has no normativity 15:54:23 xfq: because the Unicode Core Spec defines a lot of the terms 15:55:30 addison: it used to be the TUS was not something you could access from the web, and now that it is 15:56:28 ... one potential option E would be specdev does a lot of this work 15:56:42 xfq: specdev is also a note 15:57:02 addison: yeah, but it's also the best practices document and we have mustard in it 15:57:19 ... it also straddles the line 15:57:26 ... maybe it doesn't fix this entirely 15:57:46 ... but it solves a couple of problems, one of them being that we would like to deprecate charmod fundamentals 15:57:59 agenda? 15:58:01 Issue 1988 not found 15:58:02 Issue 11648 not found 15:58:12 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:58:12 agendum 9 -- local fonts vs privacy: activity#1988 (css#11648) -- taken up [from addison] 15:58:17 i18n-activity#1988 15:58:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1988 -> Issue 1988 [css-fonts-4] Detection-prevention approach to the local font privacy issue (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [s:css-fonts] [wg:css] [Agenda+] 15:58:58 w3c/csswg-drafts#11648 15:58:59 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11648 -> Issue 11648 [css-fonts] Detection-prevention approach to the local font privacy issue (by noamr) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-tracker] [privacy-tracker] 15:59:01 xfq: we should link to this doc somewhere in github 15:59:18 addison: I wanted to bring this up ^ 15:59:27 ... new proposal for the local font privacy issue 15:59:50 r12a: it's now like you're reading a book to get your head around this issue 16:00:11 ... Chris put a list of links to issues on this topic 16:00:29 ... he had an explainer that we were using 16:00:38 ... in the TPAC discussion 16:01:14 zakim, take up agendum 8 16:01:15 agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:01:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:01:29 nmccully: we're really at a crossroads where Unicode being inadequate for typography and depending on fonts and fonts having such chaos in terms of how they support each language 16:02:16 ... for our use case and our apps are suffering greatly by not having access to the fonts in the system 18:21:42 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 18:21:42 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-irc 18:21:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/06-i18n-minutes.html addison 18:22:31 rrsagent, bye 18:22:53 rrsagent, bye 18:22:53 I see no action items