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13:56:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc
13:56:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:56:06 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF March 5, 2025
13:56:06 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:56:14 <JJ> Meeting: MATF March 5, 2025
13:56:18 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
13:56:20 <JJ> chair+
13:56:31 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile title update?
13:56:37 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile Call For Consensus (CFC) in AG WG
13:56:41 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
13:56:45 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.4 Link Purpose
13:56:50 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.6 Heading and Labels
13:57:39 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
13:57:50 <JJ> regrets+ TanyaVanWorkum
13:57:57 <JJ> regrets+ GleidsonRamos
13:58:16 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:58:16 <JJ> regrets+ KarlaRubiano
13:58:45 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
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14:01:11 <JJ> (starting in 2 mins; looking for scribe volunteer!)
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14:02:03 <julianmka> present+
14:02:05 <quintinb> present+
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14:02:21 <Carolina> Carolina has joined #MATF
14:02:34 <Carolina> present+
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14:05:12 <RacheleD> present+
14:05:16 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
14:05:23 <RobW> present+
14:05:25 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:05:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG2Mobile title update? -- taken up [from JJ]
14:05:31 <Aash> present+
14:05:31 <Illai> present+
14:05:34 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/76
14:05:46 <jeroen> present+
14:09:38 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:09:49 <Jamie> present+
14:09:58 <Jamie> q+
14:10:01 <quintinb> JJ WCAG2Mobile title update: Had a meeting and pre cfc and they would prefer we use this as the title. Plus they think it will help SEO and local web site search functions. There was some discussion regarding to what mobile means, running on a browser / tablet / wearables. Currently the guidance says that the WCAG is applied to applications running
14:10:01 <quintinb> on mobile. JJ suggests that we change this to Mobile Applications. Shaun re-opened an issue. JJ: Should we prefix mobile accessibility? Should we make it WCAG2APP? Mobile being at the start and end makes it more clear for the W3C.
14:10:08 <pauljadam> Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Apps
14:10:14 <pauljadam> Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Native Apps
14:10:22 <RobW> q+
14:10:24 <quintinb> q+
14:10:48 <JJ> Suggestion: Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications
14:10:57 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:11:08 <pauljadam> Just not sure we want to say Mobile twice in the title?
14:11:16 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/mobile/
14:11:40 <quintinb> Jamie earlier you mention a W3C page that we should align with - which one are they referring to? (@JJ) - I just want to recap what's on there. At one point it was talking about mobile web stuff
14:11:57 <Aash> Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to portable devices - WCAG2Portable
14:11:57 <Aash> Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to devices on the go - WCAG2OntheGo
14:13:38 <quintinb> JJ an old document prefixes with mobile. Mobile accessibility is so broad.
14:13:38 <quintinb> julianmka it does distinguish between mobile web and mobile apps. If they want us to change our name they should change their page
14:14:13 <JJ> q?
14:14:37 <quintinb> julianmka W3C mobile pages look like they need updating
14:14:56 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/ is subpage of WCAG, mobile accessibility is direct subpage of Standards/Guidelines
14:15:00 <JJ> ack RobW
14:15:38 <Jamie> quintinb the above comments are mine not julianmka :P
14:15:47 <quintinb> Sorry
14:15:53 <pauljadam> +1 on adding native in the title
14:15:57 <quintinb> That was a very quick discussion
14:15:59 <pauljadam> +1 on not having mobile in there twice
14:16:07 <quintinb> RobW I want to ask about the "native" aspect - it depends on our remit.
14:16:58 <Aash> chatGPT suggests this one: WCAG2ONE (Optimized for Native Experiences)
14:16:58 <Aash> Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Optimized for Native Experiences
14:17:08 <Jamie> +1 to Suggestion: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications (WCAG2
14:17:10 <quintinb> JJ have a vote for 3 options: combinations with prefix and suffix
14:17:12 <Jamie> mobile)
14:17:20 <Jamie> what about WCAG2Mobile
14:18:00 <quintinb> JJ Mobile Applications is the furthest we can stretch it
14:18:03 <JJ> q?
14:18:09 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:18:11 <pauljadam> Apps seems more native than Applications
14:18:37 <pauljadam> There is pure native and there is hybrid
14:19:18 <quintinb> @quintin Our definition needs to be clear that native is not html (e.g.
14:19:23 <pauljadam> Yes it's more formal
14:19:41 <JJ> q?
14:20:30 <JJ> 1: Mobile Accessibility: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications
14:20:30 <JJ> 2: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications
14:20:30 <JJ> 3: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile
14:20:30 <JJ> Please type 1, 2, 3 to vote on your preferred title
14:20:39 <quintinb> 1
14:20:47 <Joe_Humbert> 2
14:20:51 <pauljadam> 2
14:20:52 <jeroen> 1
14:20:52 <Carolina> 2
14:20:55 <Illai> 2
14:21:02 <julianmka> 2
14:21:11 <RobW> 2
14:21:32 <RacheleD> 2
14:21:37 <Jamie> 2
14:21:38 <Aash> 1
14:21:46 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:22:18 <Jamie> q+
14:22:27 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:22:43 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert Reiterating that we don't like the repeat of the word mobile
14:22:51 <JJ> ACTION: Group voted for title: "Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications (WCAG2Mobile)"
14:22:59 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:23:47 <quintinb> Jamie As a comprise - we should ask them to update the Mobile A11y page, and put our page in the same context. Give us a reason why the page is separate from WCAG2ICT
14:23:56 <JJ> ACTION: Check why Mobile Accessibility Note is not a subpage of WCAG page
14:24:13 <quintinb> Jamie Mobile Accessibility needs to mean "Mobile Applications"
14:24:59 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:24:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG2Mobile Call For Consensus (CFC) in AG WG -- taken up [from JJ]
14:25:08 <JJ> https://deploy-preview-1110--wai-website.netlify.app/about/groups/task-forces/matf/ updated MATF page
14:25:57 <quintinb> JJ has asked to remove [Mobile A11y] - I don't think anyone is calling it that
14:27:57 <julianmka> q+
14:27:59 <quintinb> JJ questions on CFC? The CFC will be extended due to CSUN next week
14:28:17 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:29:12 <quintinb> julianmka It would be great if all members participate in the CFC - everyone should vote.
14:29:12 <quintinb> JJ Alisair has asked that we vote, because it would usually result in getting what we want
14:29:29 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:29:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value -- taken up [from JJ]
14:31:53 <quintinb> JJ standard Android and iOS components do not always meet this criteria. Removing "web authors" in favour of "software developers" - saying "most" in some cases regarding components
14:32:08 <pauljadam> Maybe our note could say "Native UI components" rather than "Standard UI components"
14:33:01 <quintinb> JJ there was discussion on what a control is - there is a new comment
14:34:22 <quintinb> JJ some native elements do not have a role
14:34:57 <quintinb> JJ looking at WCAG2ICT - where there is a note on roles
14:35:13 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:35:35 <Illai> q+
14:35:43 <quintinb> I disagree with that @JJ - "double tap to activate" does not indicate function
14:35:55 <pauljadam> It's similar to headings with levels on native. You can't actually add a heading level in Native android Yet so it's not really required to make a fake heading level. But once Android can add heading levels properly then they should be expected to do so.
14:36:21 <pauljadam> Basically, developers should not be adding "fake roles"
14:36:25 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:36:30 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
14:36:49 <Illai> q-
14:36:58 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert We may need a note, because that double tap to activate is associated with being able to click, but does not match up to role
14:37:47 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert in WCAG2ICT we may need in a definition or another note if we accept DT2A (double tap to activate)
14:38:09 <pauljadam> A hint is not really a role, on Android I would treat it like heading levels, if you can make the role speak then you should but if it's not possible then it's not a fail until it is possible.
14:38:15 <quintinb> q+
14:38:33 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:39:29 <JJ> quintinb: do not rely on screen reader output, rely on the programmatic role
14:39:32 <quintinb> TalkBack is not the only screen read on Android, DT2A is not "reliable"
14:39:37 <Illai> +1 to quintinb
14:39:37 <julianmka> q+
14:39:39 <pauljadam> Sliders on iOS don't really speak a role they just say "adjustable" so maybe that counts as the role 🤷‍♂️
14:40:15 <julianmka> q-
14:40:20 <pauljadam> is there no a11y inspector for Android I guess?
14:40:35 <pauljadam> on iOS you can inspect the elements easily just like on web
14:40:45 <quintinb> From the Zoom chat (Carolina): TalkBack does announce “double tap to activate”, but this hint can be disabled, and this is just something that TalkBack does. TalkBack is a powerful tool to use for testing, but it is not the actual test. The test is does a control have a name, role, and value (if applicable)
14:40:49 <julianmka> q+ to say that talkback verbosity settings can help determine programmatic
14:40:59 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:40:59 <Zakim> julianmka, you wanted to say that talkback verbosity settings can help determine programmatic
14:41:08 <Jamie> q+
14:41:25 <JJ> Android has some form of UI inspector but IMO its pretty buggy
14:41:46 <quintinb> julianmka: When it comes to settings, Android let's users adjust the order of announcement - one way to expose developers' faking roles
14:41:53 <pauljadam> Can you inspect any app you download on your Android phone or do you need the project file?
14:42:04 <quintinb> Any app pauljadam
14:42:12 <JJ> Any app but its limited, with source code you can see more props
14:42:16 <pauljadam> So then you can see the role on Android?
14:42:37 <Jamie> q-
14:42:46 <quintinb> Yeah you can see an XML accessibility tree from adb "adb uiautomator dump"
14:43:18 <quintinb> (maybe "adb shell uiautomator dump" - but something like that)
14:43:54 <pauljadam> I was hoping for something simple like Xcode Accessibility Inspector were you can inspect every element in an app and see all it's accessibility properties.
14:44:19 <Joe_Humbert> +1 to julianmka
14:44:30 <quintinb> There is a layout inspector in Android Studio, it uses this mechanism
14:44:35 <pauljadam> on web you need to be able to inspect code as well or else you would only rely on the screen reader output
14:45:31 <JJ> q?
14:46:03 <julianmka> Google's Accessibility Inspector can be somewhat helpful re: detecting roles shoehorned into contentDescription -- e.g. it will flag a label with "button" in it.
14:46:20 <Jamie> q+
14:46:33 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:46:59 <JJ> There seems agreement that 'hint' is not sufficient as 'role' (e.g. "Double tap to activate")
14:47:31 <quintinb> Jamie - the standard UI components on other platforms don't always meet these criteria
14:47:50 <quintinb> Jamie we need to start from the base level intention of the SC
14:47:58 <Carolina> There is an android inspector for accessibility, we are presenting it at CSUN: Testing Mobile Apps: Tools, Techniques, and Best Practices session
14:48:18 <pauljadam> if the standard platform native control is not having the proper role then that is a bug with the platform developer and they need to fix it in a future release
14:49:07 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
14:49:32 <pauljadam> If you're talking about Android Accessibility Scanner, that's not really an inspector. Or, are you taking about the Layout Inspector?
14:50:23 <Carolina> no, no, it is a tool that you can use to inspect the app - you can see the name, value and role ...focus etc...
14:50:37 <pauljadam> Native controls are "expected" to meet Name, Role, Value but they may not due to the platform developers missing adding a11y when they release the native control, or they may fix it over time, or make it worse.
14:50:38 <JJ> ACTION: What happens if your "standard user interface component" meet 4.1.2 when used according to specification.
14:50:53 <Carolina> we are not only presenting that, but it would be part of the presentation
14:51:02 <quintinb> julianmka are we talking about all UI components?
14:51:06 <pauljadam> It's intended for custom ui control
14:51:13 <julianmka> Sorry, I meant Accessibility Scanner
14:51:22 <pauljadam> If a native control is not meeting 4.1.2 then that goes to the native control developer
14:52:06 <quintinb> JJ is it possible to make a component meet 4.1.2 - if developers are not able to do it, is it then an exception?
14:52:48 <Carolina> Quintin, why they wouldn't be able to add a role?
14:53:10 <quintinb> @JJ if the FWK doesn't meet it,  then they just won't pass a WCAG
14:53:18 <Jamie> what is FWK>
14:53:42 <quintinb> Carolina I suspect that was me scribing, but I suspect it's because the particular role doesn't exist, e.g. link is not a role in Android
14:53:44 <julianmka> FWK = framework
14:53:44 <pauljadam> It's native if the user thinks it's native
14:54:09 <Illai> q+
14:54:28 <pauljadam> users don't know the difference between a pure native app, or a hybrid native app, or a web native app
14:54:39 <quintinb> +1 pauljadam
14:54:44 <quintinb> Jakobs Law
14:54:45 <pauljadam> only a developer knows
14:54:49 <JJ> ack Illai
14:55:21 <Carolina> I think is important to have the proper role, otherwise, user could not navigate by controls on Talkback for example
14:55:31 <JJ> Illai: There is no App Specification like the Web Specification
14:55:42 <Jamie> +1 to illai
14:55:43 <Carolina> There are a few test that you can run to know when a control has a role or not
14:55:47 <quintinb> Illai I think the issue is that there is no clear standard guidelines on what the native elements are for "mobile" - there is no backbone for native elements. No one clear specific pattern for mobile
14:56:12 <quintinb> JJ and there is no alignment between the operating systems
14:56:25 <quintinb> q+
14:56:29 <Jamie> Carolina are you able to share here more about the inspector you are speaking about next week?
14:57:08 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:57:09 <Carolina> Yes, I can share it but I kind of rather to share after the presentation. We are a week away...so if you don't mind to wait one more week?
14:57:11 <quintinb> Surely then we should align with the roles defined by that platform
14:57:37 <JJ> Thx Carolina, next week would be nice :)
14:57:47 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:57:48 <Jamie> q+
14:58:03 <Jamie> q-
14:58:48 <quintinb> JJ maybe we need specific understanding documents for a platform
14:58:55 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:59:07 <JJ> Close the queue
14:59:10 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
14:59:10 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
15:00:24 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I somewhat agree with quintinb, but it could stifle new ways to interact with mobile. Quite a few of the ally techniques cross over to other platforms. I would be worried about saying "only use these specific ones"
15:01:02 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I do think we are saying the same thing. I'm not saying to be precisely prescriptive, just to conform to the platform
15:01:22 <Joe_Humbert> understood quintinb :-)
15:01:44 <quintinb> ACTION: Next week 2.4.4, 2.4.6
15:01:50 <quintinb> ACTION: Guidance title update
15:01:55 <quintinb> Missed the last one JJ
15:02:15 <quintinb> ACTION: CFC Update via email / slack
15:02:18 <quintinb> Thanks
15:02:30 <Carolina> thanks
15:02:44 <quintinb> ...and scene
15:02:52 <Illai> Illai has left #matf
15:03:17 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:09:51 <JJ> zakim, bye
15:09:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, julianmka, quintinb, Carolina, RacheleD, RobW, Aash, Illai, jeroen, Jamie
15:09:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf
15:27:12 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
15:27:13 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-actions.rdf :
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Group voted for title: "Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile Applications (WCAG2Mobile)" [1]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T14-22-51
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Check why Mobile Accessibility Note is not a subpage of WCAG page [2]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T14-23-56
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: What happens if your "standard user interface component" meet 4.1.2 when used according to specification. [3]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T14-50-38
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Next week 2.4.4, 2.4.6 [4]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T15-01-44
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guidance title update [5]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T15-01-50
15:27:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CFC Update via email / slack [6]
15:27:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/03/05-matf-irc#T15-02-15