16:55:08 RRSAgent has joined #webfonts 16:55:12 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-webfonts-irc 16:59:03 skef has joined #webfonts 16:59:30 zakim, start meeting 16:59:31 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:59:32 Meeting: Web Fonts Working Group Teleconference 16:59:44 present+ 17:00:38 present+ 17:01:08 Garret has joined #webfonts 17:01:10 present+ 17:01:15 present+ 17:04:57 Topic: status of the IFT encoder, scope of wg deliverables 17:05:18 Vlad: charter has two sections defined deliverables and open deliverables 17:06:49 Skef: two issues one with the spec how the interactions work, and the prototype impl 17:07:04 Skef: too date Google has made most of the contributions to the prototype impl 17:07:28 Skef: some of it is rewritten based on previous technology provided by Adobe 17:07:55 Skef: my understanding was its a joint project. Didn't have to go through dicussions in this meeting, but still under the w3c 17:08:40 Skef: contributions are reviewed and go through PRs, but with this document that Adobe has concerns about. Didn't want to review at the time. 17:09:12 Skef: open to creating a space within the repository that things are unreviewed. 17:09:26 Skef: not sure why it's in there. 17:09:43 Skef: it seems like there's a lot of decisions being made by Google. 17:09:51 Skef: when I thought this was a joint project. 17:10:26 Skef: if this is a Google project they can do what they want. However if it's udner w3c there should be more give and take. 17:10:47 Vlad: my concern is the rights to what have been produced in this working group as part of these side projects. 17:11:07 Vlad: other deliverables gives us flexibility to do other things that benefit the spec development. 17:11:47 Chris: we shouldn't call this a reference implementation. That has more normative force which isn't the case here. 17:12:15 Skef: I don't perceive there being a rights issue since the license is very permissive. 17:13:39 Vlad: for woff1 we needed a test harness, was primarily developed by one member of the group. When we had woff2 we needed specially crafted font files. Google hired a contractor to do this. 17:14:13 Vlad: I don't see obstacle to do what we are doing with the sample implementation. 17:14:41 Skef: if it's a group project what does that mean? 17:14:52 Skef: group has some influence 17:15:01 Skef: if group doesn't then it's not a group porject 17:15:19 jfkthame has joined #webfonts 17:15:21 Vlad: we do have influence every group member can participate 17:24:08 Skef: want to be clear if they want to merge for documentation purpose and we haven't had time to review. That other parties haven't signed off on it. 17:26:33 Garret: broadly agree, the document was worded poorly at the start with respect to describing its status. Happy to clarify it's status at the start. 17:27:54 Garret: will rework the PR a bit to address this. 17:29:21 Garret: is there intersect in code reviewing in the repo? 17:29:38 Scott: I'm interested in being involved in development. 17:33:10 Skef: looking to be more involved as well. 17:36:50 Garret: main goal at the moment is to get an end to end wasm type demo working again with client. Then I'll circle back to encoder to work. 17:37:06 Garret: also a test suite and fuzzer suite for checking the quality of segmentations. 17:37:49 Skef: to make the fuzzer test more effective would be able to feed in glyphs of interest and vary those in more compelling combinations. 17:38:54 Garret: circling back to the original issue, do we want to have ift-encoder stay in w3c? 17:39:47 Chris: thankful for Garret's contributions so far, but would be great to see others contributing as well. 17:40:41 Skef: agreed its best to continue under w3c. 17:42:11 Topic: gathering language/locale data 17:42:54 Skef: it is my belief that most documents are written in one language and the second most will be two languages. There's lots of locality in how documents are written. 17:43:30 Skef: there are cases where there are more then use of what's considered the same language. eg. hong kong chinese vs mainland chinese. Code point frequencies are relatively different. 17:43:57 Skef: it's a goal to optimize things for languages 17:44:11 Skef: in particular on the table keyed side to have locale specific patches. 17:45:08 Skef: on the glyph keyed side it makes sense to be able to optimize the glyph keyed patches so that you don't mix high frequency in one locale with another. 17:45:48 Skef: so it will make sense to have a notion of locale/language. I believe I can build the relevant files. Locale/language is not just he codepoints, also punctation. 17:46:18 Skef: these could feed into the encoder, with one piece of information: Per locale codepoint frequency. 17:46:19 Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Hong_Kong#Chinese_languages 17:46:48 Skef: identify locale in document and associate different regions of the document and figure out codepoint frequency. 17:47:07 Skef: I don't have a source for this, but Google possibly does. 17:47:18 Skef: was hoping to get input from Google. 17:51:13 Garret: three sources of data - 17:51:13 1. The previous PFE analysis suite we gathered page walk data which you could derive language codepoint frequency for. 17:51:13 2. We've previously publicly released our CJK segmentation + frequency data. 17:51:13 3. I will be looking to regather codepoint frequency data from the webcrawl index. 17:54:50 Chris: would be nice to publish the frequency data would be useful outside of this group. 17:54:54 Garret: yes agreed 17:55:32 Vlad: are spec changes are needed? 17:55:41 Skef: don't think I need any 17:56:06 Skef: approach to spec development is to try and generalize, but it may end up coloured by the problems we're trying to solve 17:57:29 Vlad: working draft was published recently, don't have time to review in detail but it's on github. 17:57:46 Vlad: Chris initiated tag review process. If we get comments back do we need formal working group action? 17:58:11 Chris: if we have consensus we can resolve on github, if it's contentious we should discuss in working group. 17:58:26 Chris: may need to be on the agenda next time. 17:59:10 zakim, list attendees 17:59:10 As of this point the attendees have been Vlad, ChrisL, skef, Garret 17:59:29 present! 17:59:34 present+ 18:00:05 present+ Scott 18:00:22 present+ Abhishek 18:00:29 Abhishek has joined #webfonts 18:02:43 zakim, list attendees 18:02:43 As of this point the attendees have been Vlad, ChrisL, skef, Garret, Scott, Abhishek 18:02:54 rrsagent, make minutes 18:02:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-webfonts-minutes.html Vlad