14:53:35 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 14:53:40 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-irc 14:53:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:53:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:53:47 rrsagent, set logs world visible 14:54:23 Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group 14:54:26 Date: 4 March 2025 14:54:54 Regrets: Nico, Steven 14:54:57 Scribe: Norm 14:57:37 john has joined #ixml 15:02:04 Present: John, David, Norm, Bethan 15:03:04 Present: +Fredrik 15:03:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-minutes.html norm 15:03:44 Present: John, David, Norm, Bethan, Fredrik 15:04:27 Chair: Norm (pro tem) 15:04:33 Topic: Accept the minutes of the previous meeting 15:04:48 Accepted. 15:04:56 Topic: Review of open actions 15:04:59 No progress. 15:05:04 Topic: Status reports 15:07:02 Norm: I got NineML 3.2.9, includes an attempt to provide better diagnostics on failed parses. 15:07:21 John: I've done something similar with my parser, it shows you the open rules. 15:08:00 ... The real problem is when you have ambiguity as well. 15:08:24 Bethan: Even when you have ambiguity, the failure comes at a particular point in the parse. You can't be parsing more than one thing. 15:08:48 John: There are two cases, one is a failure in the middle of the input. There's nothing else that can be predicted. That might be under a number of different branches. 15:09:11 ... The other one is where you got to the end of the input and there's nothing left. What was supposed to come next? 15:10:04 Bethan: What I'm interested in working on are tools that will treat your grammar as a generator rather than a recognizer. 15:10:14 ... So that you can for fairly small grammars generate a sample of what is recognized. 15:10:25 ... So you can look at that and go "Uh, no, not that!" 15:10:59 ... Sometimes it can be very helpful to walk through a regular expression, for example, and recount what could be matched. 15:11:08 ... That process of talking through is a process of generating from the regular expression. 15:11:17 John: Can you do this from any grammar without ambiguity? 15:11:28 Present: John, David, Norm, Bethan, Fredrik, Jim 15:11:35 Some discussion of generators. 15:13:05 Bethan: I'm also interested in trying to work out what a grammar might be *trying* to match: phone numbers, UK post codes, etc. 15:13:25 ... And then point people to versions of those grammars. 15:13:45 Fredrik: I've been thinking about rendering parts of the graph when a parse fails. 15:15:02 Bethan: I wonder if we can make something like Guther's railroad diagrams; or maybe overlapping circles, some way to indicate what belongs to what and what is partial. 15:16:50 John: Starting to find users finding really weird errors which is nice. 15:19:47 Some discussion of the origins of the test case that demonstrated the problem of non-XML output (a single text node) 15:20:45 John: It's worth making people aware that record-oriented can produce output that isn't well formed. 15:21:35 Fredrik: With the current state of the parsers, it's very expensive to parse a huge file. It's more efficient to do it in a record-oriented way. 15:22:20 Bethan: One of the things I've been thinking about recently is that we have a bunch of dynamic errors that are things like there not being a single root node, or two attributes with the same name on the same element. 15:22:33 ... Earlier the spec says that conformance is about processors and grammars, not the combination of a grammar and in input. 15:22:53 ... That being the case, I think these should be static errors on the grammar; not errors that are only thrown if a particular input produces not-well formed XML. 15:23:02 ... I'm convinced you can do it. 15:23:25 John: Take the case of duplicated attributes, it depends on the input if that's the case. 15:23:49 ... If you said that it was a static error, that would be a problem. 15:24:00 Fredrik: Do you have an example? 15:24:28 Bethan: I think a single root element is relatively easy to work out; but suppressed elements make it a little harder. 15:24:59 ... I think we should think about removing the statement from the spec or we should talk about changing those to static errors. 15:25:32 Fredrik: I sort of agree, but I think it might be easy to create a grammar that will create a root node or not. And that's entirely dependent on the input. 15:25:57 Bethan: I think the spec implies that if a grammar could produce not well-formed XML, the grammar isn't conformant. 15:26:10 John: Does that not imply that the universe of inputs is infinite? 15:26:38 Some further discussion of what this analysis would look like. 15:28:47 ACTION: Bethan to review the dynamic errors and see which ones might possibly be resolved statically. 15:32:11 Topic: Issue #294, “parse tree” is not defined in the specification 15:32:29 Norm: Let's wait for Steven. 15:32:32 Topic: Perspectives on serialization 15:33:13 Norm: Wait for Steven 15:33:25 Norm: Should I try to improve that though? 15:33:49 Thumbs up, consensus that it's worth making another pass to improve it. 15:34:30 Topic: Next meeting 15:35:18 No regrets given. 15:35:43 Topic: Any other business 15:35:46 None heard. 15:40:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-minutes.html norm 15:41:35 s/No regrets given./18 March. Note that will be 1 hour later in the US. No regrets heard./ 15:41:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:41:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-minutes.html norm 17:20:27 norm has joined #ixml 17:20:45 s/Guther/Gunther/ 17:20:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:20:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/04-ixml-minutes.html norm