14:57:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lws
14:57:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-irc
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14:58:42 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
14:58:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:58:44 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
14:58:50 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage
14:59:03 <acoburn> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20250303T100000/#agenda
14:59:05 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:59:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions and Announcements
14:59:05 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Action Items https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aaction
14:59:05 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Glossary https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/pull/123
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15:01:40 <AZ> present+
15:01:47 <acoburn> present+
15:01:51 <hadrian> present+
15:01:59 <ericP> present+
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15:02:46 <cpn> present+
15:03:03 <TallTed> present+
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15:03:21 <bendm> present+
15:04:22 <acoburn> chair: ericP
15:04:24 <ericP> agenda?
15:04:26 <acoburn> scribenick: acoburn
15:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:04:45 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 1
15:04:45 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions and Announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:45 <ericP> chair: ericP
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15:05:08 <laurens> present+
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15:05:39 <eBremer> present+
15:05:44 <ericP> scribe+
15:05:58 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/02/27-lws-minutes.html
15:05:58 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/03/10-lws-minutes.html
15:05:59 <ericP> acoburn: US transitioning to daylight savings time
15:06:04 <TallTed> q+
15:06:13 <ericP> ... this meeting is tied to US time
15:06:58 <acoburn> TallTed: reminder to subscribe to the W3C calendar
15:06:59 <ericP> ... this means that for the next three weeks, Europeans will be joining one hour earlier
15:07:09 <ericP> scribe-
15:07:33 <ericP> Zakim: take up next agendum
15:07:42 <ericP> take up next agendum
15:07:44 <acoburn> ack TallTed
15:07:58 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
15:07:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> Action Items https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aaction -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:08:50 <ryey> ryey has joined #lws
15:08:53 <ryey> present+
15:08:55 <acoburn> ericP: first item is #11
15:08:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/11 -> Action 11 add categorization to the needs discussion labeled issues (on hzbarcea) due 2025-01-13
15:09:06 <acoburn> hadrian: this is the recurring item, we'll skip it
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15:09:23 <acoburn> ericP: introduce owner and controller in glossary
15:09:30 <jeswr> present+
15:09:44 <acoburn> hadrian: no time this week, planned to do in the next days
15:10:03 <acoburn> ericP: do you need assistance?
15:10:18 <acoburn> hadrian: help will come in the form of comment
15:10:24 <ericP> Zakim, next agendum
15:10:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Glossary https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/pull/123 -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:11:59 <acoburn> hadrian: this is PR #123, there is a comment that some definitions are too specific, but these come from NIST and other standards bodies
15:12:00 <gb> Issue 123 not found
15:12:16 <TallTed> q+
15:12:30 <acoburn> ... some comments from Ted related to dashes
15:12:49 <acoburn> ack TallTed
15:12:49 <ericP> ack next
15:13:09 <acoburn> TallTed: replaces hyphens with m-dashes, other comment is to sort by alpha-numeric
15:14:19 <acoburn> hadrian: will update the sort order, will need to figure out how to input m-dashes via markdown
15:14:57 <acoburn> TallTed: Shift-Option-hyphen on a mac works. Also copy-paste works
15:15:31 <acoburn> ... the +1 on Sarven's comment is related to the generality
15:15:51 <acoburn> hadrian: will write back to Sarven to ask to be more specific about which terms are too specific
15:16:22 <ericP> agendum
15:16:25 <acoburn> ... the comments and criticisms are all helpful, because they lead us to a better solution
15:17:15 <acoburn> ericP: is there anything we can do to help Hadrian?
15:17:23 <ericP> topic: what we can do to help Hadrian with UC&R
15:17:41 <acoburn> hadrian: some thoughts to begin to think about: identity and local-first
15:18:01 <acoburn> ... self-soverign identity will be challenging with DNS
15:18:36 <acoburn> ... local first implies the existence of a service that views the data locally, e.g. serve as a web page, perform query
15:19:01 <acoburn> ... how much of this does the group want to take on? The challenge will relate to setting boundaries and limiting scope
15:19:08 <ericP> q+ to propose that there may be constellations of features that we're unsure of what to specify
15:19:20 <acoburn> ... these two are the biggest challenges to sort out early
15:19:25 <ericP> ack next
15:19:26 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose that there may be constellations of features that we're unsure of what to specify
15:20:01 <TallTed> i/Shift-Option-hyphen /fwiw, GitHub Markdown lacks a way to write m-dashes. They take `--` (two hyphens) and render `–` (an n-dash). Other markdown systems take `--` (two hyphens) and render `–` (an n-dash), while still others take `---` (three hyphens) and render `—` (an m-dash).
15:20:01 <TallTed> i/Shift-Option-hyphen /On macOS, you can type opt-hyphen to get an n-dash, and opt-shift-hyphen to get an m-dash.
15:20:08 <acoburn> ericP: when someone writes a UC&R how can one not write solutions into that document, which can annoy people
15:20:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:20:46 <acoburn> ... however, giving an editor latitude, such as using "for example" can be useful
15:21:25 <acoburn> ... in specs there may be a constellation of approaches, e.g. "for DID, the following three..." or "for DNS, the following options ..."
15:21:49 <acoburn> ... I propose we give the editor a lot of lattitude to write things down in order to get a draft out and to start a conversation
15:22:21 <acoburn> ... the UC&R document is an opportunity to write a story that grounds the WG
15:22:51 <acoburn> ... would that mandate help you, Hadrian, create a more coherent document?
15:23:07 <TallTed> s/Other markdown systems take `--` (two hyphens) and render `—` (an m-dash/
15:23:27 <acoburn> hadrian: that sounds good, but if my ideas are very different from the rest of the group, it would be helpful to get early feedback from others
15:23:35 <TallTed> s/Other markdown systems take `--` (two hyphens) and render `–` (an n-dash/Other markdown systems take `--` (two hyphens) and render `—` (an m-dash/
15:23:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:23:49 <acoburn> ericP: the best approach is to just write things down and get feedback
15:24:16 <acoburn> hadrian: it would save us time to have these discussions earlier
15:25:14 <ryey> q+ on difference between local-first vs local-storage
15:25:17 <ericP> q+ to say that we'll work it out. the end of the editing process can trim stuff we don't want
15:25:24 <bendm> q+ to agree with ericP that this latitude will help uncover ambiguities or mark areas such as eg DID alignment
15:25:26 <acoburn> ... there are tradeoffs for local storage vs. network interactions. Some guidance from the group would be helpful
15:25:34 <ericP> ack next
15:25:35 <Zakim> ryey, you wanted to comment on difference between local-first vs local-storage
15:26:14 <acoburn> ryey: want to distinguish between local-first and local-storage. To me, these are very different
15:26:28 <acoburn> hadrian: the big issue is portability
15:26:49 <TallTed> q+
15:26:53 <acoburn> ... if I move to a different provider, I want to have the same types of services
15:27:19 <TallTed> q+ to describe what I think of as local-first vs local-storage
15:27:31 <acoburn> ryey: to me portability is very important, but I'd like more clarification. It seems less about local-first
15:27:55 <acoburn> ericP: are you discussion the difference in understanding or the difference in expressing this
15:28:04 <ericP> ack next
15:28:05 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that we'll work it out. the end of the editing process can trim stuff we don't want
15:28:15 <ericP> ack next
15:28:16 <Zakim> bendm, you wanted to agree with ericP that this latitude will help uncover ambiguities or mark areas such as eg DID alignment
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15:28:37 <acoburn> TallTed: when I think of local first, the data will be on my primary storage location
15:28:56 <dmitriz> present+
15:29:03 <acoburn> ... i.e. local to me in a physical context
15:29:50 <acoburn> ... Local first is to write to the primary location and then replicate out to other locations
15:30:06 <acoburn> ... part of the game is to describe the functionality we want
15:30:20 <acoburn> ... and then to describe what the software features are that meet these features
15:30:32 <acoburn> ... e.g. "I need to read a thread of conversation"
15:31:04 <TallTed> ack
15:31:10 <TallTed> ack TallTed
15:31:10 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to describe what I think of as local-first vs local-storage
15:31:33 <acoburn> hadrian: I agree with that, but I was thinking more of the use cases where you want to build a query service
15:31:36 <TallTed> q+
15:31:58 <acoburn> ... which likely will be hosted on the same machine, so the query service will see the data as local (rather than via HTTP)
15:32:41 <acoburn> ... but if you port your data to another location, and someone else builds a query service, how can we ensure that feature is portable
15:33:07 <ericP> ack next
15:33:35 <dmitriz> +1 agree with Ted, that we should specify the storage structure only minimally
15:33:36 <acoburn> TallTed: we should be minimally involved in the details of the implementations. The question is are the required features available
15:34:24 <acoburn> ... the requirements are built on use cases. The features satisfies requirements
15:34:43 <acoburn> ... we don't specify the "how". We specify the what
15:35:07 <acoburn> ... the internals are mostly opaque and should stay that way
15:35:18 <acoburn> ... we should minimize what we are delivering in terms of the specification
15:35:57 <acoburn> ... they don't *have* to write into a SQL engine or Triple Store. It is sufficient that we define the API
15:37:01 <acoburn> bendm: wanted to agree with eric that we should uncover ambiguities
15:37:09 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
15:37:12 <jeswr> q+
15:37:26 <ericP> ack next
15:37:30 <acoburn> hadrian: the most difficult part is still portability. If I see a storage, what am I looking at?
15:37:40 <TallTed> portability is a user-story/use-case. the net result is that (some) functionality which was available at x is now available at y.
15:38:14 <TallTed> q+ to talk more about portability
15:38:16 <acoburn> jeswr: my understanding of portability, it seems that when you talk of portability, you also talk about dev-ops and tracability
15:39:17 <acoburn> ... I don't think we have time in this WG to standardize that level of portability (e.g. metadata formats for traceability)
15:40:04 <acoburn> hadrian: I agree that we should not define this, but we should indicate how these value-added features can be added to an implemenation
15:40:44 <TallTed> q?
15:40:51 <acoburn> ... for example, if provider A supports a feature and the data is moved to provider B, how would provider B understand what provider A saw in the data?
15:41:02 <ericP> ack next
15:41:03 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to talk more about portability
15:41:36 <acoburn> TallTed: this is a question of how far into the weeds we go. They are important to consider, but aren't in the realm of specification
15:41:42 <acoburn> ... they are in the realm of use cases
15:42:15 <acoburn> ... one issue that many users have identified in the realm of social media includes exporting data
15:42:35 <acoburn> ... google can export data, but it's basically a blob with minimal metadata
15:42:51 <acoburn> ... IIRC, you don't get comments
15:43:11 <acoburn> ... FB is similar, you can export data, but it is not structured or portable
15:43:32 <dmitriz> hey, for what it's worth, the SocialWeb CG has an in-progress account export format..
15:43:35 <acoburn> ... that is part of a user story that we might imagine: take data from google plus and put it on facebook
15:43:46 <acoburn> ... that is something that LWS could deliver
15:43:57 <dmitriz> https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/6fcd/fep-6fcd.md
15:44:27 <acoburn> ... e.g. when a user exports data, they should be able to get the data in a form with enough structure that it is usable
15:45:02 <acoburn> ... what we want to try to do is to enable enough as is possible with loosely-bound specifications
15:45:20 <ryey> q+ on "verifying"/"proving" the "imported" data
15:45:21 <dmitriz> q+
15:46:44 <TallTed> note that I didn't get *deep* into what's exportable -- who read my post, who read joe's comment on my post, etc.
15:46:46 <ericP> queue?
15:46:48 <acoburn> dmitriz: in the social media use case, this is relevant for the social web WG, which specifies a very light weight export format. There is a link describing what this looks like. The focus is on the manifest
15:46:58 <ericP> queue: ryey
15:47:13 <acoburn> ... a tarball of all the data and directories and a manifest that describes what is contained
15:47:15 <ericP> queue =ryey
15:47:30 <TallTed> q?
15:47:34 <dmitriz> q-
15:47:38 <acoburn> ack next
15:47:39 <Zakim> ryey, you wanted to comment on "verifying"/"proving" the "imported" data
15:48:08 <acoburn> ryey: re import/export between storage providers, I'd like to add a point about verifying the data
15:48:31 <dmitriz> q+
15:48:40 <ericP> q+ to ask dmitriz if there were some guiding principles for how deep to code interopperatble structures vs. free text misc
15:48:43 <hadrian> q+
15:48:58 <acoburn> ... there must be ways to verify this, such as cryptographic techniques. Are there better ways?
15:49:04 <ericP> ack next
15:50:04 <ryey> (maybe relevant) Trust Spanning Protocol https://trustoverip.github.io/tswg-tsp-specification/
15:50:17 <acoburn> dmitriz: re verification, in social CG, we're approaching it in a layered approach. First layer, is just the data. Second layer, we want to sign the data. The agent is able to sign all the operations
15:50:26 <TallTed> requirements for data portability... (1) crypto-signing and similar verification that xyz was exported and xyz was imported; (2) that same "fields" and their "ranges"/"domains" are used; (3) that photo-abum app xyz and zyx use same "fields" and "ranges", and support same graphic formats; (4) ...
15:50:39 <acoburn> ... Verifiable Credentials are used to track provenance
15:50:41 <TallTed> q+
15:50:43 <ericP> ack next
15:50:44 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask dmitriz if there were some guiding principles for how deep to code interopperatble structures vs. free text misc
15:51:11 <acoburn> ericP: all of these affect interoperability
15:51:48 <acoburn> ... we want guarantees that we understand the structure
15:51:55 <ryey> Great to hear that dmitriz! Are there any pointers to that layered stuffs as a spec?
15:52:16 <acoburn> ... in the social CG, how far did the group go in terms of specifying the format of the export data
15:53:06 <acoburn> dmitriz: all the data is formatted as JSON-LD. Each impl introduces new fields, and for the programmers that write the import/export fields, they need to understand the new fields
15:53:22 <acoburn> ... in linked data, we have links to human-readable documentation
15:53:24 <ericP> ack next
15:54:14 <dmitriz> yeah, would be great to see ya'll at IIW!
15:54:14 <acoburn> hadrian: ryey mentioned verification, but I don't recall seeing a use case about this. Please add one, if there isn't one
15:54:30 <acoburn> ... IIW is next month and I plan to attend, please reach out if you plan to attend
15:54:48 <ericP> ack next
15:54:54 <acoburn> ... this conversation was very helpful for me because it gives me much more direction
15:55:16 <acoburn> TallTed: making note that we've been talking about some different applications in this conversation
15:55:33 <dmitriz> (in case people are curious with how we're thinking about verification aspect of it, here's the 'Roadmap for Actor and Object Portability' doc https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/7952/fep-7952.md )
15:55:45 <ericP> q+ to ask if IIW merits an announcement (i.e. in the agenda)
15:55:46 <dmitriz> (again, not official spec, just in progress)
15:56:07 <acoburn> ... social media use case, but there are others requirements. This requires that the same fields/schemas are used
15:56:28 <acoburn> s/others requirements/other applications/
15:57:04 <acoburn> ... I also want to be able to migrate photo albums, e.g. I want to store my pictures and share them with different groups
15:57:37 <acoburn> ... how we do that gets into the implementations that are derived from the use cases and requirements
15:57:45 <acoburn> ... if we approach all at once, it's too big
15:59:24 <acoburn> ... the storage has limited requirements
15:59:46 <acoburn> ... photo application needs to be able to say: give me all the pictures with this tag, etc
15:59:56 <acoburn> ... maybe there are extension points
16:00:32 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html acoburn
16:00:40 <ericP> adJOURNED
16:00:40 <TallTed> IIW -- Internet Identity Workshop -- https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
16:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html TallTed
16:03:39 <TallTed> s|s/Other markdown systems take `--` (two hyphens) and render `—` (an m-dash/||
16:03:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-lws-minutes.html TallTed
16:05:02 <acoburn> acoburn has left #lws