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13:52:32 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:52:36 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
13:52:50 <wendyreid> date: 2025-02-27
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13:55:02 <wendyreid> agenda+ WASM resolution
13:55:13 <wendyreid> agenda+ Update from FXL Accessibility
13:55:26 <wendyreid> agenda+ What to update in EPUB A11y 1.1?
13:55:40 <wendyreid> agenda+ Dark mode guidance for reading systems
13:55:56 <wendyreid> agenda+ Adding dark mode styles to EPUB 3.4 documents
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14:00:09 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:00:18 <toshiakikoike> present+
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14:01:48 <wendyreid> present+
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14:04:01 <wendyreid> zakim, take up item 1
14:04:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WASM resolution -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:04:03 <Sueneu> scribe: Sueneu
14:04:29 <Sueneu> Wendy: We have a packed agenda today
14:04:52 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:04:54 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2686
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14:05:20 <Sueneu> Wendy: We would like to have a resolution affirming 2686, which includes webassembly…
14:05:29 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge PR 2686.
14:05:39 <Sueneu> +1
14:05:40 <wendyreid> +1
14:05:41 <gpellegrino> present+
14:05:57 <gpellegrino> 0
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14:06:18 <Sueneu> duga: There were some changes from out discusstion…
14:06:57 <Sueneu> something of a backdoor for fallbacks for embedded content. We’ve closed an open door and removed embedded content
14:07:02 <ikkwong> present+ ikkwong
14:07:18 <Sueneu> mgarrish: mostly it maps to what we talked about, added some clarifications and examples…
14:07:42 <CharlesL> +1
14:08:19 <Sueneu> there is a summary in the PR
14:08:19 <shiestyle> +1
14:08:20 <duga> +1
14:08:23 <mgarrish> +1
14:08:28 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:08:34 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:09:33 <George> +1
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14:10:05 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR 2686.
14:10:12 <wendyreid> zakim, take up item 2
14:10:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Update from FXL Accessibility -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:10:45 <Sueneu> Wendy: Next item update from FXL a11y TF
14:11:54 <Sueneu> …FXL TF has been working on a recommendations document for creating FXL accessible content and recognizing the limitations
14:12:56 <Sueneu> …we’ve been floating some ideas about how we can address the limitations of FXL accessibility
14:12:56 <Sueneu> …Hadrien has mentioned a reading system that can display content in different ways
14:13:12 <Hadrien> q+
14:13:28 <Sueneu> …including possibly rendering the FXL content as reflowable
14:13:29 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:13:54 <Sueneu> Hadrien: What we have in mind is experimental. We are trying one platform first…
14:14:23 <Sueneu> …for this we are doing it on the web, because of our opensource web reader, Thorium web
14:15:01 <Sueneu> …we would walk the dom to extract structure and utterances and pass them along. Here we would use that differently
14:15:28 <Sueneu> …since in FXL words and letters are often separated, we are thinking of putting the text together
14:15:54 <Sueneu> …and creating a readability mode that allows font changes, colors, etc
14:16:22 <Sueneu> …this will depend on the quality of the content, if it is well structured, you will get something readable
14:17:04 <Sueneu> …on larger screens we will do this side by side, you will see the fixed layout on one side and the reflowable on the other
14:17:12 <Sueneu> …on smaller screens it will be a toggle
14:17:29 <duga> q+
14:17:29 <Sueneu> …hard to say when we will have something to show, possibly in the summer or fall
14:17:34 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:17:57 <Sueneu> duga: how does this relate to the work the taskforce is doing?
14:18:49 <Sueneu> wendyreid: since we’ve identified things keeping fxl layouts from being fully accessible this is one of the ways we are looking to solve this
14:19:21 <Sueneu> …on the practical side, we are writing a techniques doc, about how to achieve the recommendations
14:19:52 <Sueneu> …the goal is to encourage ebook creators to write the code in a way that allows a mode like this to work
14:20:08 <duga> q+
14:20:17 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:20:37 <George> q+
14:20:44 <Sueneu> duga: Has there been any exploration of using LLMs to extract useful data?
14:20:47 <wendyreid> ack George
14:20:49 <Hadrien> q+
14:20:52 <Sueneu> wendyreid: we have not
14:21:25 <Sueneu> George: could a fxl book be validated to be useful for a reading mode?
14:21:53 <CharlesL> q+
14:22:03 <Sueneu> wendyreid: we could run the book with ace and get some of the results, but it would still require human review for things like reading order
14:22:26 <Sueneu> George: does the technique thread the content through the page?
14:22:46 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:22:48 <Sueneu> wendyreid: yes. If they follow the recommendations.
14:23:13 <Sueneu> Hadrien: Assessing if content will work is possible
14:23:47 <Sueneu> …we know which languages are used from the metadata, we can extract the text
14:24:12 <Sueneu> …we can check and see if the results don’t look like the indicated language, we will know something like the reading order is wrong
14:25:05 <Sueneu> …about LLMs its interesting to see what is happening in screen readers
14:25:54 <Sueneu> …they will pick up alt text, and if that is not available it will create a description
14:26:20 <Sueneu> …I’m not sure all the APIs we need are exposed, we can’t always use them
14:26:43 <Sueneu> …but it is worth exploring. It may or may not be better than walking the DOM
14:27:10 <Sueneu> …lots of universities are focused on this area, uses like extracting texts from comics
14:27:22 <Sueneu> …LLMs are working better than before
14:27:28 <tzviya> present+
14:27:30 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:27:43 <Sueneu> …the challenge is making a generalized model and using the embedded software
14:28:06 <Sueneu> CharlesL: Most fxl books can reach WCAG A, but not AA
14:28:44 <Sueneu> …Benetech is working with Amazon’s publishing to certify their pipelines, looking for ways their fxl pipeline can reach WCAG A
14:29:26 <wendyreid> zakim, take up next item
14:29:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WASM resolution -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:29:34 <wendyreid> zakim, take up next item
14:29:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, wendyreid
14:29:42 <wendyreid> zakim, takue item 3
14:29:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takue item 3', wendyreid
14:29:46 <wendyreid> zakim, take up item 3
14:29:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- What to update in EPUB A11y 1.1? -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:30:15 <Sueneu> Wendy: We started this discussion but there is still and open question
14:30:48 <Sueneu> …what do we need to update in accessibility? are there areas we might look at?
14:31:44 <Sueneu> AvneeshSingh: We discussed accessibility sufficient metadata, there is a demand from the APA to stick with 2.0 for the floor
14:31:59 <Sueneu> …but we should move forward from that spec
14:32:28 <Sueneu> …alignment with 3.4 we don’t know what that would be but are keeping our eyes open
14:32:57 <Sueneu> …annotations, webtoons, we need to inquire what is required for accessibility for these things
14:33:16 <CharlesL> s/accessibility sufficient/accessMode sufficient
14:33:18 <wendyreid> zakim, take up item 4
14:33:18 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Dark mode guidance for reading systems -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:33:28 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/14
14:33:49 <Sueneu> Wendy: Brady brought up the issue of day/night modes in reading systems
14:34:29 <duga> q+
14:34:33 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:34:38 <Sueneu> …this has been an issue for a long time, more and more publishers are taking a look at this
14:35:20 <Sueneu> duga: I had a very specific issue, color space meta information in documents, that can change the appearance based on reading mode
14:35:50 <Sueneu> …I’m curious what happens when we add this to an EPUB and how it works in the reading systems
14:36:07 <Sueneu> …I don’t want to recreate a new system for day/night mode
14:36:17 <Hadrien> q+
14:36:21 <Sueneu> …but we might need to advise people on color mode in their documents
14:36:24 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:36:53 <Sueneu> Hadrien: I don’t think it is a good idea to use this when your authoring content
14:37:15 <Sueneu> …we have apps were the browser or system settings will apply a different theme for the app but not the content
14:37:22 <shiestyle> q+
14:37:42 <Sueneu> …some apps might default to the system setting, but not all of them, not all users will have a preference
14:37:58 <Sueneu> …content creators should steer clear of this
14:38:05 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:38:05 <duga> +1
14:38:57 <Sueneu> Shiestyle: in Japan we use characters that are image based. We have to prepare both light and dark mode content
14:39:11 <duga> q+
14:39:15 <Sueneu> …that makes Japanese particularly challenging
14:39:19 <duga> q-
14:39:58 <Sueneu> duga: you could do it with a filter in your CSS, but Hadrien is right, this could cause mapping problems
14:40:20 <Sueneu> …the next step would be to generate some content and see how reading systems respond
14:40:26 <Sueneu> …I wil do that
14:40:32 <wendyreid> zakim, take up item 5
14:40:32 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Adding dark mode styles to EPUB 3.4 documents -- taken up [from wendyreid]
14:40:38 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2685
14:41:22 <Sueneu> Wendy: we have the APR open to make the spec visible in dark mode
14:41:36 <CharlesL> +1 to merge
14:41:39 <Sueneu> …can we approve dark mode APR to be merged?
14:41:47 <wendyreid> PROPOSED: Merge PR 2685, add dark mode to EPUB 3.4 drafts.
14:41:47 <Sueneu> +1
14:41:49 <duga> +1
14:41:55 <tzviya> +1
14:41:55 <wendyreid> +1
14:41:55 <shiestyle> +1
14:41:59 <romain> +1
14:42:01 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:42:03 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:42:58 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR 2685, add dark mode to EPUB 3.4 drafts.
14:43:55 <wendyreid> Topic: Open letter about interoperable ebook standards
14:43:56 <wendyreid> https://www.libraryfutures.net/post/call-for-interoperable-ebook-standards
14:44:03 <Sueneu> Wendy: Did anyone see the open letter to interoperable ebook standards?
14:44:17 <Sueneu> …this came from academia
14:44:56 <Sueneu> …they want to look into ease of use, ease of discovery, and accessiblity
14:45:15 <tzviya> q+
14:45:16 <Sueneu> …this is an opportunity to engage with them
14:45:21 <Hadrien> q+
14:45:25 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:45:37 <shiestyle> +q
14:46:12 <Sueneu> Tzviya: matt, would some of your connections from the library world have connections there?
14:46:13 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:46:31 <Sueneu> Hadrien: they are asking for two things I
14:46:49 <Sueneu> …I’ve created. The are familiar with EPUB
14:47:04 <wendyreid> q+
14:47:10 <Sueneu> …their problem is having to pay more and more for content and reading systems
14:47:28 <Sueneu> …they would like to be able to create one collection, to harvest content into one collection
14:48:18 <Sueneu> …this is about fragmentation of discovery, and fragmentation of the reading experience
14:48:30 <Sueneu> …this has already happened in a few countries
14:48:50 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:49:05 <Sueneu> Shiestyle: This seems not from academia but from libraries
14:49:38 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:49:39 <duga> q+
14:49:42 <Sueneu> …this article says Readium only, I don’t understand the objectives
14:51:07 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:51:23 <Sueneu> wendyreid: I’ve experienced this with my own studies. From my own university library, I could click through to 20 other sites and may or may not have access to the material
14:51:42 <Hadrien> q+
14:51:43 <Sueneu> duga: Is this article looking for a rights management system?
14:51:55 <tzviya> q+ to identity issue
14:52:01 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:52:39 <Sueneu> Hadrien: they aren’t looking at rights management, but want a single collection that can be used by whatever system you are using
14:53:18 <Sueneu> …you could imagine a Kobo reader that supports DRM  being able to read across ebook vendors
14:53:35 <Sueneu> …its about giving end users options
14:53:54 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:53:55 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to identity issue
14:54:00 <Sueneu> …using standard interoperability would let the end user choose their reader
14:54:23 <Sueneu> tzviya: this is also about user identity management
14:54:46 <Sueneu> …the rights may not carry over from one library to a connected one
14:54:56 <Hadrien> q+
14:55:00 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:55:02 <Sueneu> …this is complex, but there are some cobbled together solutions
14:56:02 <Sueneu> Hadrien: There is an identity issue moving from one platform to another, but if you only need to go to your university/institutions platform, it would be easier to solve
14:56:35 <Sueneu> …identity issues could be largely solved by bringing everything to one platform
14:57:24 <Sueneu> shiestyle: we created a digital comics task force, let me or Hadrien know if you are interested
14:57:55 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
14:57:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, shiestyle, gautierchomel, wendyreid, duga, George, Sueneu, mgarrish, CharlesL, AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino,
14:58:03 <Zakim> ... ikkwong, tzviya
14:58:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
14:58:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/27-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
14:58:11 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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