20:58:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #data-shapes
20:58:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-irc
20:58:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:58:46 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), caribou
20:58:59 <caribou> meeting: Data Shapes Weekly Teleconference
20:59:20 <betehess> betehess has joined #data-shapes
20:59:28 <HolgerK> present+
20:59:52 <ajnelson-nist> agenda?
20:59:54 <gkellogg> present+
20:59:57 <betehess> present+
21:00:02 <caribou> zakim, clear agenda
21:00:02 <Zakim> agenda cleared
21:00:15 <caribou> Chair: Eliana
21:00:23 <caribou> Present+
21:00:39 <elianaP> present+
21:00:46 <betehess> caribou, elianaP: just a heads-up that Alex Hutter from Netflix will be joining today, his request to join formally still going through the pipeline
21:00:49 <YoucTagh> present+
21:01:04 <caribou> Present+ AndyS, Thomas Bergwinkl
21:01:13 <ahutter> present+
21:01:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:01:23 <ajnelson-nist> caribou, I'll be scribing, but I'm not well-versed in the IRC commands.
21:01:23 <bergos> bergos has joined #data-shapes
21:01:29 <caribou> present+ Yousouf
21:01:33 <elianaP> thanks betehess
21:01:41 <bergos> present+
21:01:49 <ajnelson-nist> Thank you very much.
21:01:55 <caribou> scribe: Alex Nelson
21:02:07 <caribou> scribeNick: ajnelson-nist
21:02:09 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/02/17-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:02:09 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/03/03-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:02:14 <TallTed> present+
21:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:02:47 <ajnelson-nist> Agenda is on GitHub here: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-02-24.md
21:03:17 <caribou> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-02-24.md
21:03:46 <caribou> Topic: Publications
21:03:47 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: Holger Working Draft for Core and SPARQL Spec
21:03:59 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: Documents have been cleaned up since last week,
21:04:00 <caribou> s/Topic: Publications//
21:04:11 <ajnelson-nist> Documents now self-contained, have no outside references,
21:04:22 <ajnelson-nist> there are few if any semantic changes.
21:04:40 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #data-shapes
21:04:45 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: What is next step with these documents?
21:04:48 <AndyS> present+
21:04:51 <TallTed> s/Documents now /... Documents now /
21:04:52 <gkellogg> q+
21:04:59 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: Changes had gone through PRs reviewed and approved by other editors.
21:05:07 <TallTed> s/there are few /... there are few /
21:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:05:32 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg: Advice is generally, publish frequently.  1st public draft is special event that requires a working-group vote for each doc that will be published.
21:05:40 <ajnelson-nist> Generally does not need to have changes from prior version.
21:05:51 <ajnelson-nist> Next consideration: Auto-publishing when PRs are merged.
21:06:02 <TallTed> s/Generally does not /... Generally does not /
21:06:04 <ajnelson-nist> and/or when `gh-pages` is updated.
21:06:15 <ajnelson-nist> The next group vote would be for candidate releases.
21:06:55 <TallTed> s/Next consideration: /... Next consideration: /
21:07:05 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg: Is there a way to see the formatted versions of PRs before merging?
21:07:12 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: No update on whether this capability is present.
21:07:12 <TallTed> s/and/or when /... and/or when /
21:07:19 <caribou> q+
21:07:24 <TallTed> s/The next group vote /... The next group vote /
21:07:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:08:03 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg: Current review process requires reviewing large diffs on HTML, but not rendered.  Some group members rely on htmldiff.
21:08:12 <ajnelson-nist> ... Githack may also be an option.
21:08:34 <TallTed> s|and/or when |... and/or when |
21:08:34 <ajnelson-nist> ... Using a single repository for all documents limits some PR tool reviewability.
21:08:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:09:10 <ajnelson-nist> ... A GitHub Action could be done to assist with reviews.
21:09:37 <ajnelson-nist> Eliana planning to send a Call for Consensus.
21:09:47 <david> david has joined #data-shapes
21:10:01 <caribou> Action: Carine to send a snapshot for the Call for Consensus on the FPWD
21:10:08 <TallTed> s| and/or when `gh-pages` |... and/or when `gh-pages` |
21:10:16 <caribou> ACTION: Eliana to send the call for consensus
21:10:19 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg : Two actions needed from workin-group.  First is agree for 1st working public draft.
21:10:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:10:48 <ajnelson-nist> ... This should all be available in the W3C process document.
21:10:54 <ajnelson-nist> (2nd item missed)
21:10:54 <TallTed> s|and/or when `gh-pages` |... and/or when `gh-pages` |
21:11:08 <ajnelson-nist> caribou: One approval may be possible for several documents at once.
21:11:47 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg : Automated publication via echidna is 2nd decision.
21:11:52 <caribou> s/(2nd item missed)/ auto-publishing (using Echidna tool)
21:12:11 <caribou> s/ auto-publishing (using Echidna tool)/...  auto-publishing (using Echidna tool)
21:12:13 <ajnelson-nist> 2nd agenda item, PR 261
21:12:26 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/echidna
21:12:34 <caribou> s/2nd agenda item,/Topic: /
21:12:46 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: First item is from original appendix of SHACL 1.0, verbatim copy of SHACL-SHACL inlined into the document.
21:13:02 <ajnelson-nist> ... Suggests to drop this so SHACL-SHACL Turtle file is a second download.
21:13:16 <ajnelson-nist> ... Suggest for addressing redundancy, and so a different release cycle can be followed for these two documents.
21:13:31 <ajnelson-nist> ... For instance, SHACL-SHACL may be extended for purposes beyond Core, such as for SPARQL.
21:13:38 <betehess> q+
21:13:46 <ajnelson-nist> ... Pull request is for removing inlined copy, replacing with separate Turtle file.
21:13:47 <gkellogg> ack e
21:13:50 <gkellogg> ack me
21:14:00 <AndyS> ack caribou
21:14:34 <ajnelson-nist> betehess: No objection, but what is the purpose or plan for SHACL-SHACL?
21:15:10 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: In the very last weeks of SHACL 1.0 working group, just prior to approval, it was reviewed by (among others) president of W3C, Tim Berners-Lee.  He suggested such a document be part of the publication.
21:15:23 <ajnelson-nist> ... This was created within an afternoon or less.
21:15:45 <ajnelson-nist> ... No strong opinion, and would rather not spend more time on it.
21:15:54 <ajnelson-nist> ... But if others are interested, they are welcome to work on it.
21:16:12 <ajnelson-nist> ... Placement of SHACL-SHACL is now a little confused by having Core and SPARQL documents.
21:16:19 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:16:31 <betehess> We can always decide to publish as NOTE
21:16:31 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: It is nice to have all of these things somewhere
21:16:36 <AndyS> scribe+
21:16:56 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: Alos like SHACL-SHACL
21:16:56 <gkellogg> q+
21:16:58 <betehess> q+
21:17:01 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
21:17:12 <AndyS> s/Alos/Also/
21:17:14 <AndyS> scribe-
21:17:23 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg: It seems this may be publishable as a non-normative note.
21:17:26 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:17:34 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Consequences for lifecycle?
21:18:04 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg It is a W3C publication, but a TR, has no normative bearings.  There are many documents that are purely informative, such as use cases, tutorials.
21:18:07 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:18:22 <AndyS> ack gkellog
21:18:23 <ajnelson-nist> ... Publishing as a note with parallel access to raw data would be adequate and useful.
21:18:42 <ajnelson-nist> betehess I suggest also this go out as a note
21:19:15 <ajnelson-nist> ... Acknowledging Holger noting SHACL-SHACL's incompleteness.  A resource like this has been needed at Netflix.
21:19:45 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP If we agree, I would suggest this be kept accurate, up to date, generally maintained by a core party.
21:19:57 <ajnelson-nist> ... should not interfere with other deliverables.
21:20:09 <AndyS> scribe+
21:20:14 <elianaP> q?
21:20:38 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: offer to maintain SHACL-SHACL
21:20:51 <AndyS> ... what is the commitment here?
21:21:19 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
21:21:24 <AndyS> holgerk: vocabulary files with proper PRs
21:21:46 <AndyS> scribe-
21:21:48 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:22:02 <AndyS> scribe+
21:22:24 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: are there notes on the current coverage?
21:22:28 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
21:22:44 <AndyS> betehess: they are coming
21:22:51 <AndyS> scribe-
21:22:55 <ajnelson-nist> topic: PR 254
21:23:14 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK Have we now approved this pull request?
21:23:22 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Yes, we agree on the separation.
21:23:30 <ajnelson-nist> Sorry, NOW topic: PR 254
21:23:41 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/212
21:23:53 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: Introduction of something we have used in production for some time now.  It is basically a syntactic sugar.
21:24:14 <ajnelson-nist> ... This assists with implicit targeting.
21:24:25 <caribou> -> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/254 PR 254
21:25:07 <ajnelson-nist> ... Basically now, a new meta class is introduced, `sh:ShapeClass`, which combines the full semantics of `owl:Class` or `rdfs:Class` coinciding with a shape class.
21:25:11 <gkellogg> q+
21:25:15 <betehess> +1 to sh:ShapeClass as long as the definition of implicit target class doesn't change
21:25:25 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg So, this requires entailment in order to see the RDFS class?
21:25:42 <gkellogg> ack me
21:25:51 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK Not necessarily.  But if it is in the spec, implementations would need to formally recognize this term.
21:25:56 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:26:19 <betehess> q+
21:26:24 <AndyS> q+
21:26:31 <ajnelson-nist> ... There is an implementation that tests this.
21:27:02 <AndyS> q-
21:29:06 <caribou> Holger: OWL has the same mechanism with a metaclass
21:29:39 <ajnelson-nist> ack m
21:29:41 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
21:30:06 <ajnelson-nist> betehess I am mostly in favor with this proposal, but not sure I understood the part about a processor having to "Know about it"
21:30:50 <ajnelson-nist> ... I don't think this houldhave an impact on the way things workt oday
21:31:49 <bergos> q+
21:32:13 <ajnelson-nist> bergos I am in favor.
21:32:46 <ajnelson-nist> ... If you don't have ann OWL depenency, then this lets the specification be scoped just in SHACL
21:33:14 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP IIRC When you don't have something aware of SHACL, then you don't get the expansion.
21:33:57 <betehess> I assume that people using sh:ShapeClass will be using SHACL 1.2 anyway?
21:34:03 <ajnelson-nist> bergos Would you still see these effects on property shapes?
21:34:07 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:34:11 <TallTed> s/elianaP IIRC When /elianaP: IIRC When /
21:34:16 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:34:16 <betehess> ack me
21:34:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:34:38 <bergos> ack me
21:34:38 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP I suggest tabling discussion.  Please discuss further on Issue.
21:34:38 <ajnelson-nist> ... we will pick up next week.
21:34:58 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: PR 268
21:35:23 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK This was another feature in production usage as part of the DASH namespace
21:35:28 <caribou> -> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/268 PR 268
21:35:36 <ajnelson-nist> ... This is a simple constraint component, boolean-valued, typically set on property shapes,
21:35:38 <betehess> q+
21:35:44 <ajnelson-nist> ... stating this property cannot have line breaks,
21:35:59 <ajnelson-nist> ... typical use cases: labels, IDs, things showing up in tables or tree structures.
21:36:14 <ajnelson-nist> ... Can be expressed in `sh:pattern`, excluding certain characters,
21:36:29 <YoucTagh> q+
21:36:46 <ajnelson-nist> ... but a boolean simplifies things for users and form developers - query for boolean value to determine if a multi-row text field should be provided.
21:36:58 <ajnelson-nist> ... One test cases provided.
21:37:43 <ajnelson-nist> betehess SHACL-Core could become a space for many such interesting components.  But, there are 10s of other examples like that.   Could these constraints be expressed outside of SHACL core?
21:37:46 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:37:53 <AndyS> q+
21:37:56 <betehess> ack me
21:38:25 <ajnelson-nist> YoucTagh If we want to keep SHACL-SHACL alive, should we wait until we add the SHACL-SHACL part to this PR?
21:38:47 <YoucTagh> ack me
21:38:49 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP This is now a procedures discussion.
21:39:01 <ajnelson-nist> ... It is fine for CURRENT PRs to not have SHACL-SHACL updates,
21:39:20 <ajnelson-nist> ... but in future, please keep all the updates within the one PR.
21:40:30 <ajnelson-nist> Question on whether page constraint width was considered
21:40:46 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/221
21:40:48 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK - This seems like a general HTML-level issue, not something for SHACL to fix
21:40:55 <gkellogg> ack AndyS
21:41:15 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS I'd raised another issue about balancing "kitchen sink" vs small core specification
21:41:35 <ajnelson-nist> ... I suggest drawing up a big list of all the desired features, so we can determine scope / size of space
21:41:46 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Do you think there are many such shortcuts?
21:42:20 <bergos> q+
21:42:33 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS They're domain specific.  I found about 3 for strings, checking URIs for namespaces - didn't come up with very many.
21:42:53 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Do these pertain to SPARQL functions?
21:43:27 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS Regexes could cover much, but we could also leave paths for implementers to make faster code paths than evaluating general regexes
21:43:31 <gkellogg> q+
21:44:03 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Agreed, this seems like a good list to create.
21:44:10 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS - Please add to Issue 221.
21:44:52 <ajnelson-nist> bergos Agreed with Andy, a list would be good.  Can we keep a running list on an Issue?
21:45:06 <bergos> ack me
21:45:10 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Yes, let's please.
21:45:29 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg When adding such convience accessors, it would be nice to have evidence of value.
21:46:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html caribou
21:46:07 <ajnelson-nist> ... Yes, many things can be done with regexes, but there's a reason most languages provide convenience functions for similar functionality.
21:46:19 <ajnelson-nist> ... Our evidence could include feedback from community
21:46:32 <gkellogg> ack me
21:46:43 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP This evidence could be difficult to gather.  We might have most of the interested community right here.
21:46:51 <ajnelson-nist> ... How would you gather such feedback?
21:47:13 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg Agreed, eliciting use cases can be difficult
21:47:23 <ajnelson-nist> ... Raised as a principal consideration.
21:47:40 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Another concern: Evaluating feedback.  If there's 0 feedback, do we say, throw it out, it's not useful?
21:47:56 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg Why're we spending time on it if "No one" is interested in it?
21:48:12 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Asking for feedback is always good.  We can see about evaluating it when it comes in.
21:48:31 <betehess> +1 to the principle discussed by Gregg to be applied when adding something to CORE
21:48:32 <elianaP> q?
21:48:35 <ajnelson-nist> ... We should add this as a point for the list of simplified/shortcut functions.
21:48:58 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Decision about pull request?
21:49:16 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK - Put it in for now, raise ticket later when we've gathered evidence?
21:49:26 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg We can also add features as "at risk"
21:49:41 <ajnelson-nist> ... This flags things for community feedback, gives easy mechanism for later removal
21:49:58 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: PR 264
21:50:21 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK SHACL Turtle file contains terms from SHACL-JS document, which was discontinued, and only attained "working group" draft status
21:50:33 <ajnelson-nist> ... Terms could be deprecated, too.
21:50:51 <betehess> q+
21:50:53 <ajnelson-nist> ... Likely these terms were least-used, less than SHACL-AF
21:50:58 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:51:09 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Seems straightforward
21:51:41 <ajnelson-nist> betehess - Is there a rule about modifying resources in-place?
21:52:06 <ajnelson-nist> caribou If it's a document, we can publish as discontinued.  If a namespace we cannot destroy the URI.
21:52:37 <ajnelson-nist> betehess We're discussing editing a resource "in-place".  Is this fine?
21:52:49 <ajnelson-nist> ... E.g. Can rdfs:domain statements be removed?
21:53:06 <ajnelson-nist> caribou I don't think we can removing anything from slash-ns (`/ns`).
21:53:29 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/ns/shacl.ttl
21:53:54 <gkellogg> q+
21:54:00 <ajnelson-nist> betehess I mean removing defintions from within /ns/shacl.ttl.
21:54:35 <betehess> q-
21:54:38 <ajnelson-nist> caribou If you want to edit the resource, it must be backed by a change to a REC-track
21:55:22 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:55:43 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg Namespace documents ARE updated from time to time, e.g. JSON-LD document was updated
21:56:08 <ajnelson-nist> ... seems there's confusion in discussion - removing namespace VERSUS removing resources within the namespace
21:56:19 <ajnelson-nist> ... What are consequences of removing some resources within namespace document?
21:56:44 <ajnelson-nist> ... Principal: Resolving a URI should continue to work even after changes, even if lesser information is returned after an update.
21:57:11 <ajnelson-nist> ... Generally, this mechanism seems to not be catastrophic.
21:57:17 <ajnelson-nist> ... We should follow principal of least harm.
21:57:39 <AndyS> q+
21:57:41 <ajnelson-nist> ... Evolution of documents is generally additive, but in cases like this where something may be decided as inappropriately published, cleanup should be fine.
21:58:03 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP We're not removing a namespace, just removing parts of it.
21:58:45 <AndyS> q-
21:58:50 <caribou> q+
21:58:53 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg Comments could always be put in to say deprecated or removed.
21:59:29 <ajnelson-nist> caribou Sometimes, some groups have changed contents that was at a specific namespace.  Sometimes this was versioned because of backwards-incompatible changes, sometimes done at second namespace.
21:59:55 <betehess> I assume none of the JS-terms were normative?
21:59:55 <ajnelson-nist> ... This is less possible for normative resources.
22:00:36 <betehess> q+
22:01:00 <ajnelson-nist> ... Basically, breaking implementations is not allowed
22:01:19 <ajnelson-nist> betehess What happens if the -JS things are kept in the document?
22:01:36 <ajnelson-nist> ... Not necessarily suggesting this, but would like to understand consequences.
22:01:58 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Summarizing: Nobody in principal opposed to removal, but there might be technical difficulties.
22:02:11 <ajnelson-nist> ... Out of time for today.
22:02:17 <ajnelson-nist> ... Please continue discussion on Issues.
22:02:41 <gkellogg> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:02:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html gkellogg
22:02:48 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK IIRC, I don't think the namespace document was declared as normative.  It happens to include SHACL-AF features as well.
22:03:02 <ajnelson-nist> ... If we're now deciding we CAN'T change this document, this would be trouble.
22:03:13 <ajnelson-nist> caribou This might need a different namespace.
22:03:27 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg This is aproblem showing up in a lot of places, e.g. from MediaType requirements.
22:04:12 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS Are we publishing SHACL-Core, but without Node Expressions in it?
22:04:22 <ajnelson-nist> gkellogg Do we need a resolution to publish first working draft?
22:04:30 <ajnelson-nist> caribou We are doing that offline, as a Call for Consensus.
22:05:16 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS We're doing Node Expressions now.  But as first draft, this can change.
22:05:27 <ajnelson-nist> caribou Doing document now lets us reserve the short name.
22:05:58 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP Let's go ahead with the call.
22:05:58 <elianaP> q?
22:06:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html caribou
22:07:57 <caribou> s/gkellogg\ /gkellogg:/g
22:08:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html caribou
22:08:40 <AndyS> s/AndyS\ /AndyS:/g
22:09:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-minutes.html AndyS
22:10:11 <caribou> RRSAgent, excuse us
22:10:11 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-actions.rdf :
22:10:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Carine to send a snapshot for the Call for Consensus on the FPWD [1]
22:10:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-irc#T21-10-01
22:10:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eliana to send the call for consensus [2]
22:10:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/24-data-shapes-irc#T21-10-16