20:04:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
20:04:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/20-aria-at-irc
20:04:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:04:43 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike1
20:04:47 <ChrisCuellar> present+
20:05:04 <jugglinmike1> present+ jugglinmike1
20:05:07 <jugglinmike1> scribe+ jugglinmike1
20:05:23 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
20:05:25 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
20:05:28 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
20:05:32 <jugglinmike> present+ james
20:05:34 <howard-e> present+
20:05:37 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
20:05:38 <mmoss> present+
20:05:51 <jugglinmike> present+ mfairchild
20:05:54 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
20:05:58 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
20:06:23 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
20:06:34 <jugglinmike> topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
20:06:37 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/February-20%2C-2025-Agenda
20:06:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
20:07:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as published
20:07:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Wednesday February 26
20:07:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday March 10
20:07:33 <jugglinmike> topic: Current status
20:07:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're getting closer to mapping out a plan for the next several months
20:08:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The single biggest change to the overall status in the last week is that we have three updates in "candidate review"
20:08:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The "link" test plans 2 and 3 are now pushed to "candidate review", and we expect a speedy approval on those
20:09:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We also got an update on the "action menu buttons"--all three of those test plans (the action menu buttons and the navigation menu button--those are all updated with the new version of the test plan where we fixed the issue with the "must" requirement for the "collapsed". We discussed that a few weeks ago. We changed the priority of the assertion, and the system did what it was designed to do. No testing needed to be repeated
20:10:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We still have six issues on "action menu button", all from Apple
20:10:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're left with two plans (the two "radio" plans) in "Draft review:
20:10:45 <jugglinmike> s/:/"/
20:10:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: After that will be the "media seek slider"
20:11:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're chipping away at things thanks to everybody's hard work!
20:12:23 <Joe_Humbert> present+
20:12:41 <jugglinmike> topic: Disclosure nav menu testing
20:13:05 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1195
20:13:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have version 18.3 and 15.3.1. I only ran test 9 (but test 9 and 11 were very similar)
20:14:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think Joe_Humbert verified that he had the latest versions
20:14:15 <Joe_Humbert> i do
20:14:19 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I was also on OS 15.3 and Safari 18.3
20:14:27 <Joe_Humbert> this in another meeting
20:14:30 <jugglinmike> mmoss: And I reset all my settings
20:14:40 <Joe_Humbert> still in*
20:15:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So IsaDC, myself, and Joe_Humbert all definitely have the same versions and are all getting the same results
20:15:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I hate to just erase mmoss's experience, though!
20:16:09 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I have no objection to that though, in the interest of consistency
20:16:42 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I would feel weird about updating my results to match, though
20:16:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Me, too
20:16:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering what could create a difference like this...
20:17:35 <jugglinmike> mmoss: There are three conflicts. The last test--test 14--is a different class of conflict. The first two seem specific to the tab key--it's just not doing what it's supposed to do
20:17:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering, if we were to compare our keyboard settings...
20:22:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the accessibility setting for "full keyboard access"...
20:22:24 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I have that turned off
20:22:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have that off. It's even dimmed--I can't turn it on, though I don't know why
20:23:01 <Joe_Humbert> turned off for me
20:23:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Me, too
20:23:39 <jugglinmike> mmoss: You can't turn it on while VoiceOver is running. That's why it's dimmed for you, Matt_King
20:24:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My "keyboard navigation" switch is on
20:24:46 <jugglinmike> mmoss: So is mine
20:25:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that one is supposed to get automatically turned on when you turn on VoiceOver, normally, unless you turn it off...
20:25:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is there a setting related to "tab" in Safari?
20:25:37 <Joe_Humbert> yes
20:25:39 <jugglinmike> mfairchild: I think it still has that
20:25:47 <Joe_Humbert> i just checked
20:26:46 <jugglinmike> mfairchild: It's under "advanced" in the accessibility section. It's called "press tab to highlight each item on the page"
20:26:51 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I do not have that turned on
20:26:57 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
20:27:11 <Joe_Humbert> i have that turned on
20:27:14 <jugglinmike> dean: You have to have that on, and it's off by default
20:27:41 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'm going to toggle it "on" and run through the test real quick
20:28:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, maybe that's the problem here. That can be our action plan
20:29:48 <jugglinmike>  mmoss: I will finish running through the conflicts that I have, but at a glance, the first test case that I ran gave me what I was hoping to see--that is, consistent results with everyone else
20:29:52 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: All right!
20:29:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great!
20:30:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Radio group testing
20:30:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's very odd that several of the plans had 8 out of 15 tests done
20:30:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is that because it's how many of the tests didn't change when we updated to the new version of the plan?
20:30:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Or is it maybe because the bot didn't produce results for those tests?
20:31:10 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: If I remember correctly, the tests were for JAWS, and they matched with a very old test run that we did.
20:31:24 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I don't know where those results are coming from because I didn't have any JAWS tests done, yet
20:31:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So those must be from the prior runs of the plan
20:32:06 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: For "radio group with tab index", the NVDA Bot didn't run all the tests. I ran it again, but I haven't yet checked if it finished or not
20:32:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The "active descendant" one, it looks like the NVDA Bot did everything--AT responses for 15 out of 15
20:33:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then there's a bot run that says "responses for zero of 15 tests recorded." It looks like it's just not running
20:33:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, it says "15 tests cancelled"
20:33:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did a human definitely do that? Did you maybe cancel it by accident, IsaDC? Or is there a bug?
20:33:51 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I didn't press the button in the "manage bot run" dialog
20:34:22 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Just confirming, after looking at the log for that run, there is a bug with the automation
20:34:53 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think it might be related to some work that's being done to improve the automation stability
20:34:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ironic!
20:35:15 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think the best thing is to wait until Bocoup can verify that the way is clear
20:35:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. When the coast is clear, could you let IsaDC, James, and me know?
20:35:33 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Will do
20:35:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. In the mean time, we still have the other runs that people can work on
20:36:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, "active descendant". IsaDC and Hadi are assigned to JAWS for the first one
20:36:33 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Hadi isn't here today, but I will send him an e-mail
20:36:40 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I will have my testing done by the end of tomorrow
20:36:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Awesome
20:37:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For "active descendant" with VoiceOver, it's Joe_Humbert and IsaDC that are currently assigned
20:37:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We only have Hadi assigned on the "roving tab index" test plan for JAWS
20:37:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are IsaDC and Hadi the only JAWS users we have available?
20:38:10 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I have access to JAWS, but I don't have version 2025, yet (we're still working with IT to get the license for that)
20:38:38 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm going to run one, so I may as well run the other one
20:39:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, what was true for the NVDA bot is also true for the VoiceOver bot?
20:39:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Were some of these updated recently?
20:39:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: yes. The "radio" test plans are fully up-to-date
20:39:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's why 7 of your 15 tests are not done
20:40:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For the 8 tests that say they are done, we should have you take a look and confirm
20:40:39 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Sure, I can do that
20:41:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, mmoss is also assigned on this one. That means we have three people assigned
20:41:07 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'm also assigned for NVDA
20:41:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, mmoss, you're completing the "disclosure" one
20:41:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if we should wait to have any bot updates before you continue your work
20:41:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Unlike Joe_Humbert, you didn't previously run this one, so you don't have any prior results
20:42:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What's the ETA for a fix to the bots, here?
20:42:32 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I think by the end of the day
20:42:56 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I will send mmoss an e-mail once I have bot results for him
20:43:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only person who is sitting out in the cold right now is dean
20:43:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll have a whole new test plan next week, so maybe we'll hold you in reserve for now
20:43:43 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll be attending a conference, but I should have some time
20:44:06 <jugglinmike> dean: I can take the bot results and copy them out and paste them in. It's just that I have a real hard time typing things while I'm listening to them
20:44:50 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can help you install the recorder
20:45:01 <jugglinmike> dean: Thanks! Let's do that
20:45:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you, Joe_Humbert!
20:45:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, we have a plan for "radio group active descendant."
20:45:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: mmoss is taking care of disclosure navigation
20:46:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When we get a bot fix in place, IsaDC will e-mail mmoss
20:46:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I noticed there is only one person testing JAWS for "roving tab index". Are we just pushing that out for next week?
20:46:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We would love to do that now if someone is available
20:47:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I don't have JAWS 2025, but could I do it using JAWS forty-minute mode?
20:47:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
20:47:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's see how IsaDC's schedule is
20:47:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I may not be able to attend next meeting next Wednesday--I have a lot of meetings on Wednesdays. Thursday meetings are better for me
20:50:08 <jugglinmike> Topic: automating JAWS
20:50:58 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: If JAWS ever implements AT Driver, it would be nice if they allowed automation without a license
20:51:33 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: That would make our work a lot easier, and the same goes for many developers who might automate JAWS to test their own applications
20:52:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if they'd be open to that, but it's a good call out. We should be thinking about how to manage secrets like JAWS licenses
20:56:26 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:56:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisCuellar, jugglinmike1, james, howard-e, IsaDC, mmoss, mfairchild, Matt_King, Joe_Humbert, dean
20:56:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:56:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/20-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:56:36 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:56:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
21:25:45 <jugglinmike1> jugglinmike1 has joined #aria-at
21:33:35 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at
22:05:10 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at
22:21:36 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria-at