14:52:11 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:52:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-irc 14:52:26 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:52:33 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/b7edae68-f52c-4aab-a1a6-3c37459e0786/20250213T150000/ 14:52:33 clear agenda 14:52:33 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:52:33 agenda+ Action Items 14:52:35 agenda+ Info Share 14:52:37 agenda+ RADAR Review 14:52:37 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:52:39 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:52:42 agenda+ Specdev edits related to TAG design-principles 14:52:44 agenda+ AOB? 14:52:55 agenda+ IETF reviews 14:53:18 agenda+ I18N Glossary 14:53:44 atsushi has joined #i18n 14:54:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:55:27 present+ 14:56:24 JcK has joined #i18n 15:02:30 present+ 15:02:33 scribe+ 15:02:54 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:02:54 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:02:56 agenda? 15:02:58 rrsagent, make minutes 15:03:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:03:06 present+ JcK 15:03:34 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:03:34 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:03:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 15:03:49 #156 15:03:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/156 -> Action 156 Figure out what is preferred for Fig 15 at https://r12a.github.io/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb#horhor (on r12a) due 2025-01-28 15:04:11 #155 15:04:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/155 -> Action 155 review glossary definitions for normativity or candidates for normativity (on aphillips) due 2025-01-23 15:04:36 #148 15:04:37 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/148 -> Action 148 propose specdev text related to design-principles#464 discussion (on aphillips) due 2024-12-12 15:04:44 #143 15:04:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/143 -> Action 143 make comments on the encoding issue attached to i18n-activity#1940 (on aphillips) due 2024-11-28 15:05:03 close #143 15:05:05 Closed -> issue #143 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/143 15:05:06 #142 15:05:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/142 -> Action 142 check if we can publish the new version of jlreq (on himorin) due 2024-11-21 15:05:38 #135 15:05:39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 15:05:47 #127 15:05:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 15:06:14 #89 15:06:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/89 -> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18 15:06:20 #33 15:06:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:06:37 #7 15:06:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 15:06:47 #4 15:06:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 15:06:59 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:07:00 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:07:18 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:07:18 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:07:27 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 15:07:49 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:07:49 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 15:08:25 agenda? 15:08:34 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:08:34 agendum 6 -- Specdev edits related to TAG design-principles -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:08:44 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/149 15:08:45 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/149 -> Pull Request 149 Address differences between DESIGN-PRINCIPLES and SPECDEV (by aphillips) [Agenda+] [Best Practice] [normative] 15:08:51 https://deploy-preview-149--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string 15:09:34 q+ 15:11:12 ack next 15:12:00 r12a: the background info appears first now 15:12:23 ... the question I had was whether we actually need that first bit of mustard 15:12:31 [[ 15:12:33 Unless you have a reason not to, use a string definition consistent with DOMString. 15:12:34 ]] 15:12:44 r12a: seems kind of redundant 15:13:35 addison: I'll move the explanations and examples box under the DOMString one 15:14:14 ... should I add something to that DOMString one that says this should be your default choice unless you have a reason not to? 15:14:41 r12a: well, it's kind of like saying this is the default choice unless it's not the default choice 15:14:46 addison: OK 15:14:50 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:14:50 agendum 8 -- IETF reviews -- taken up [from addison] 15:14:57 ... I'll make that change 15:15:08 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/last-call/?q=unichars 15:15:14 ... any objection to publishing it after making that change? 15:15:25 r12a: I would publish 15:15:58 addison: IETF review 15:16:06 ... I published the comments 15:16:51 ... there's been some email with Orie 15:17:22 ... I'm slighted disincented from wanting to do more IETF reviews, simply because they're not shaped like our process 15:17:30 ... it's usually inconvenient 15:17:45 JcK: couple of observations 15:18:12 ... one of which is that to further complicate things, by the time you submitted these reviews, one of those documents actually wasn't last called 15:18:28 ... and it's not clear whether the author intends to pursue the other one 15:19:06 ... IMO this is the only competent group looking at i18n issues on an internet-wide basis 15:19:15 ... even though we've been avoiding some non-web protocols 15:19:34 rrsagent, make minutes 15:19:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:20:41 addison: for now, I think we'll see how this thread plays out 15:20:50 ... y'all are welcome to follow along 15:21:13 ... I put the mail archive link so you can find the thread if you're interested in it 15:21:46 ... I'm having a conversation with Mark Davis and I do see there's some opportunity to do more work at Unicode on a couple of these things 15:22:28 ... because I'm actually having the exact same char repertoire subset to use in MessageFormat 15:22:40 ... so maybe someone should write this down 15:23:45 ... I'm more sensitive to Tim's comments 15:23:56 agenda? 15:24:21 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:24:21 agendum 9 -- I18N Glossary -- taken up [from addison] 15:24:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/155 15:24:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/155 -> Action 155 review glossary definitions for normativity or candidates for normativity (on aphillips) due 2025-01-23 15:25:11 addison: if you go to that issue, you can see I pasted in a list 15:25:26 ... I went through and made a list of things that could be normative defs if we wanted them to be 15:26:07 ... what I was looking for were things that define stuff probably not defined elsewhere and potentially useful in specs as a term 15:27:00 ... you are welcome to throw rocks at any or all of these because I don't even have a strong opinion 15:27:30 JcK: no rock throwing but a suggestion, it'd be useful for you to include the terms that are defined elsewhere with cross-refs 15:28:05 addison: this is not to say we would remove the rest of the entries in the glossary 15:28:21 ... this is just attempting to say which ones of these should be exported as normative 15:28:39 ... as opposed to exported as non-normative or not even exported 15:28:45 ... we would not reduce the glossary 15:28:49 JcK: OK 15:29:02 ... my apologies for my confusion 15:29:17 Bert: nice work 15:29:30 ... next step is how to indicate what is normative or not normative 15:29:42 addison: I'm not sure 15:30:24 ... we would still have problem if we didn't make all of our terms normative 15:30:36 ... we would have people using terms that we have that aren't in this list 15:31:08 JcK: I would claim that Unicode claims that they have normative defs of char encoding etc. 15:31:29 ... I might disagree with such claims but I believe they would make that claim 15:32:56 r12a: ruby, not sure that ruby should be a formal def 15:33:18 ... the Chinese guys for example in clreq don't refer to ruby, but use interlinear annotations 15:33:33 addison: we could have interlinear annotation and point ruby at it 15:33:38 r12a: yeah 15:34:14 xfq: clreq decided to use the term 'ruby' but hasn't changed the document yet 15:34:49 JcK: I'd have to go back and check but I think wall time and local time are defined in @@1 15:35:11 addison: string direction is ours 15:35:33 ... international preferences is ours dating back 20 years 15:35:41 ... I don't think it's widely used, is it? 15:36:15 r12a: we should also probably add a link from paragraph direction to string direction in our glossary 15:36:22 ... as a cross-reference 15:36:58 r12a: string direction and paragraph direction i think are two different parallel things 15:37:08 addison: string direction is the paragraph direction of a string 15:37:11 r12a: right 15:37:52 ... in paragraph direction we should say also go and look at string direction and in string direction we should say this is the string-related version of paragraph direction 15:37:56 addison: yes 15:38:03 ... we should probably fix that up 15:38:21 ... I think improving our glossary is a great idea 15:38:28 ... we should do more work here 15:38:49 ... the challenge in my mind is what we're trying to accomplish with the glossary 15:39:04 ... and we've had the discussion with plh about normativity 15:39:24 ... we've semi-guided people to ignore the warnings from the tools 15:39:32 ... 'if you want to use a term, just link it' 15:39:45 ... but i feel uncomfortable continuing to do that 15:40:00 ... we could make some of our terms normative 15:41:24 r12a: i though the idea would be that they would actually rather than point to our glossary they would point directly to the normative def 15:42:23 ... so if there's a def in the segmentation UAX and Unicode for grapheme cluster, then they could find that by going to our glossary and we have a link, they can go and use that one over there 15:42:59 addison: right but that's inconvenient because then if you think about how respec works you'd have to import all of those references 15:43:11 ... whereas with our glossary you just import us 15:43:23 ... or even get it for free from the tools 15:43:49 ... this is not actually the normative def but this link right here will get you there and here's the summary of it 15:44:04 ... is that a convenience or should we make people do the extra step? 15:44:17 JcK: it is a convenience 15:45:15 r12a: if they refer to the original UAX document by date, then they still have a valid def for the way that they'd use the concept 15:46:08 example of a spec referring to UAX links by date: https://www.w3.org/TR/2024/WD-css-text-4-20240529/#biblio-uax11 15:46:42 addison: although most people don't, they just refer to the UAX 15:46:58 ... it's not necessarily Unicode's fault because they version things 15:47:04 r12a: but it might become our problem 15:47:56 addison: if we went down this path, it sounds like the glossary wants to move to the REC track 15:48:00 JcK: I think so 15:48:21 addison: and we would need to go through before we approached CR 15:48:31 ... who wants to work on that project? 15:48:39 ... I think it's a worthwhile project 15:48:49 JcK: time permitting, I want to work on parts of it 15:48:51 addison: OK 15:49:13 r12a: by the way, we probably should have a conformance section in the glossary 15:49:48 addison: if we're a REC then we definitely have to have a conformance section 15:50:41 xfq: what about registry? 15:50:51 addison: it makes no difference 15:51:38 addison: we would have to be rechartered to produce it, we go through every one of the terms and attempt to find its way to find souce def and link it where necessary 15:51:53 ... and then we would attempt to go to CR at some point 15:52:31 ... we would do wide reviews 15:52:50 xfq: if we do wide review maybe we want to ask for review from external orgs like Unicode 15:53:06 addison: certainly ask Unicode for a review, and the Infra folks 15:53:17 JcK: probably should ask IETF 15:55:22 xfq: If people think it's the way forward, I can help, but my time is limited 15:55:31 addison: we need more people to participate 15:55:46 ... this is going to be a multi-year effort 15:56:02 ... like charmod fundamentals 15:56:47 r12a: we may end up deciding that actually only 10 of those are normative things that we'd want to define forever 15:57:06 addison: no, we would do the whole glossary if we went down that path 15:57:14 ... every term would link to some source 15:57:20 ... and have a def 15:57:35 r12a: but those wouldn't have to be normative, right? 15:57:57 addison: they would be normative from the point of view that everyone of them would point to what we meant 15:58:05 ... and people could link them 15:58:21 ... because they could use them as a skip reference to the actual source 15:58:45 ... that's a Herculean effort 15:59:02 ... we could even make a separate document 15:59:12 r12a: separate glossary for the normative terms 15:59:41 addison: I think we should think seriously about this 16:00:03 ... maybe the next step is to write a proposal for how we might accomplish this 16:00:25 action: addison: write glossary proposal identifying options and next steps for those options 16:00:32 Created -> action #157 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/157 16:01:03 addison: we need to think about it 16:02:20 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html xfq 16:02:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:02:33 zakim, who is here? 16:02:33 Present: addison, xfq, JcK 16:02:33 On IRC I see JcK, atsushi, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, gb, jyasskin, plh, xfq, hadleybeeman, alastairc, koji, cwilso, Rachael, astearns, fantasai, csarven, eemeli, florian, 16:02:33 ... Mek, agendabot, Bert 16:02:35 present+ atsushi 16:02:35 present+ Bert, Richard, Atsushi 16:02:37 present+ r12a 16:02:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/13-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:02:50 present- r12a 16:02:55 addison rrsagent, make minutes 16:28:51 bigbluehat has joined #i18n