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13:56:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc
13:56:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:56:23 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 12 February 2025
13:56:23 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:56:26 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 12 February 2025
13:56:30 <JJ> chair+
13:56:43 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile update
13:56:48 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.1 Keyboard
13:56:52 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap
13:57:09 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:57:59 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
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14:00:09 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
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14:02:35 <jeroen> present+
14:02:48 <Tanya> present+
14:03:06 <RobW> present+
14:03:14 <Aash> Aash has joined #matf
14:03:19 <pauljadam> present+
14:04:00 <JJ> Any volunteers to scribe?
14:04:30 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
14:04:34 <JJ> regrets+ GleidsonRamos
14:04:39 <JJ> regrets+ JonGibbins
14:04:51 <JJ> Zakim, move to next agendum
14:04:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG2Mobile update -- taken up [from JJ]
14:05:42 <Illai> Present+
14:05:59 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
14:06:32 <AlainVagner> present+
14:07:15 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
14:07:15 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pauljadam
14:07:53 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
14:08:00 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
14:08:21 <Karla> present+
14:08:56 <Carol> present+
14:09:17 <Aash> present+
14:11:12 <Tori> Tori has joined #matf
14:11:28 <pauljadam> JJ: asks for folks to check if their name and affiliation is correct in the WCAG2Mobile document
14:13:00 <JJ> PR for key terms: https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/96/files#diff-55b5bad7ce674a1ccf6bf170c295dd26f0e8693288f424cbd939ae7ee81f4e99
14:13:12 <pauljadam> JJ: is going over the new changes and differences with Guidance on Applying WCAG 2.2 to Mobile document vs past document
14:14:25 <pauljadam> JJ: can folks take a look at the pull request,  add draft key terms section
14:14:52 <pauljadam> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pulls
14:16:04 <pauljadam> JJ: asking if anyone has questions or comments on this process
14:16:12 <JJ> Poll: publish WCAG2Mobile as First Public Working Draft?
14:16:28 <jeroen> +1
14:16:29 <Karla> +1
14:16:32 <Illai> +1
14:16:34 <Tanya> +1
14:16:34 <Tori> +1
14:16:43 <jeroen> +1 for Jamie
14:16:45 <AlainVagner> +1
14:16:48 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:17:08 <Aash> +1
14:17:11 <RobW> +1
14:17:57 <pauljadam> JJ: poll closed, moving on
14:18:04 <Aash> q+
14:18:14 <JJ> ack Aash
14:18:25 <pauljadam> ash: is it ok to share with other folks?
14:19:03 <RobW> q+
14:19:13 <JJ> ack RobW
14:19:28 <pauljadam> JJ: prefer to wait a bit to share because it looks official now
14:20:14 <pauljadam> RobW: what is the reason this group is separate from WCAG-2ICT?
14:20:51 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG 2 ICT is not enough related to mobile apps but we need to align to WCAG 2 ICT but MATF applies only to iOS and Android native apps
14:21:14 <JJ> https://matf.to/slack channel #matf
14:21:42 <JJ> Zakim, move to next agendum
14:21:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.1.1 Keyboard -- taken up [from JJ]
14:21:42 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG 2 ICT includes desktop software, kiosks, e-reader, etc.
14:22:39 <pauljadam> JJ: need to discuss how we deal with keyboard interface, switch control, voice control etc.
14:23:52 <pauljadam> JJ: note from Tanya saying sometimes we test apps that are operable with a keyboard but not with a screen reader, what SC would this fail
14:24:32 <pauljadam> JJ: note from Tanya, if a user is trapped with the screen reader would that fail a WCAG SC?
14:24:58 <JJ> q+ pauljadam
14:25:00 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:25:19 <Tori> I definitely have thoughts, but I feel like it requires further research. I think it's a reason to put it out there and get public feedback.
14:26:15 <pauljadam> Paul: if screen reader focus is trapped you could fail reading order if keyboard focus is not trapped, if keyboard focus is trapped you can fail keyboard
14:26:47 <pauljadam> JJ: if something is not activated with double tap with screen reader what does that fail
14:27:04 <Illai> q+
14:27:08 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:27:11 <JJ> ack Illai
14:27:49 <Tanya> related issue: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/81
14:27:59 <pauljadam> Illai: on web it's referred to as keyboard because of HTML how it works
14:28:44 <pauljadam> JJ: folks using a keyboard are often using screen reader to navigate
14:29:01 <pauljadam> JJ: are we using only one AT at a time for testing or multiple? like screen reader and keyboard
14:29:14 <Illai> +q
14:29:24 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:29:25 <pauljadam> JJ: could be screen reader, voice control, keyboard, what are the exceptions for testing
14:29:45 <pauljadam> Joe: can't use screen reader without keyboard on desktop without difficulty
14:30:24 <pauljadam> Joe: issue with screen reader would show up on mobile device and desktop, is this specifically a VoiceOver issue
14:30:38 <pauljadam> Joe: when you see screen reader issue under keyboard it also affects desktop version as well
14:30:44 <Tori> +q
14:31:00 <pauljadam> JJ: compare testing with screen reader without a keyboard to find difference
14:31:28 <pauljadam> JJ: on flutter if you want to use external keyboard you have to switch off full keyboard access but if full keyboard access is on then flutter app does not work
14:31:52 <JJ> ack Illai
14:31:55 <Joe_Humbert> that seems like a problem for that Flutter issue
14:31:57 <pauljadam> q+
14:32:48 <JJ> ack Tori
14:32:50 <pauljadam> Illai: could be difficult to determine all combinations of AT to use for testing
14:33:29 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:33:52 <JJ> Non-inteference section: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#cc5
14:34:12 <Tanya> q+
14:34:17 <pauljadam> Tori: wondering if there are notes that could be added about supporting other assistive technologies referencing 5.2.5 Non-interference
14:35:00 <pauljadam> JJ: if someone is using WCAG EM to audit they would need to write down all the AT used
14:35:38 <pauljadam> JJ: when keyboard interface is mentioned then could say accessibility interface
14:35:53 <pauljadam> JJ: when keyboard is mentioned that means hardware keyboard
14:36:03 <Tori> +1 to maybe updating just the keyboard interface definition, but it would need to be tight
14:36:04 <JJ> q?
14:36:10 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:37:29 <JJ> q?
14:37:30 <pauljadam> pauljadam: usually if an element is VoiceOver operable then it will be keyboard accessible
14:37:39 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:37:49 <Joe_Humbert> one sec, phone call
14:37:51 <pauljadam> JJ: limitations of cross platform frameworks
14:38:02 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:38:05 <JJ> q+ Joe_Humbert
14:39:21 <pauljadam> Tanya: cross-platform flutter apps has lots of keyboard a11y problems, on flutter you have to turn off full keyboard access, if they have a native camera then you do need full keyboard access on, can we reject this because it's not modified by the author, it's native, but for end user it's not usable at al
14:39:50 <pauljadam> Tanya: look at intent of SC for web to see what users this is meant for on the web to apply to mobile apps
14:40:09 <pauljadam> Tanya: when we test we use 1 AT rather than combinations
14:40:49 <pauljadam> pauljadam: some combinations used together could be VoiceOver and Screen Magnification for Low Vision users who want to see and hear the UI
14:40:56 <Joe_Humbert> ready
14:41:15 <pauljadam> JJ: flutter issues with full keyboard access needing to be off
14:41:20 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:42:17 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: on desktop screen reader and keyboard are tied together because most use keyboard and screen reader. should we propose keyboard and touch because touch is the main input for touch devices
14:43:10 <Tori> +q
14:43:15 <pauljadam> JJ: would expansion of keyboard definition lead to problems or not
14:43:47 <JJ> ack Tori
14:43:48 <pauljadam> JJ: hoping folks will read broader than just keyboard and screen reader
14:44:50 <JJ> ACTION: Look into Conformance section adaptions for Mobile Applications
14:44:58 <pauljadam> Tori: great we care to solve problem but most places have laws where disability discrimination is less about WCAG and more an person access this yes or no so we may not need to solve for this because there may be other mechanisms to get other AT supported
14:45:21 <Tori> +q for Jamie (can't access IRC)
14:45:32 <JJ> Poll: Replace "keyboard interface" with "accessibility interface"?
14:45:40 <pauljadam> JJ: poll to replace keyboard interface with accessibility interface
14:45:42 <Illai> +1
14:45:42 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:45:43 <Tanya> +1
14:45:45 <Karla> +1
14:45:58 <AlainVagner> +1 for Jamie
14:45:59 <AlainVagner> +!
14:46:01 <Joe_Humbert> +1 FOR jAMIE
14:46:01 <AlainVagner> +1
14:46:02 <Tori> +1 BUT only if we have a tight definition of accessibility interface
14:46:04 <Carol> +1
14:46:05 <pauljadam> -1, don't want to change WCAG Keyboard to something else
14:46:54 <Illai> +1 to Tori's comment
14:47:34 <jeroen> +1
14:47:55 <JJ> q?
14:48:16 <pauljadam> Jamie: should have a definition ready for accessibility interface
14:48:50 <JJ> ack Tori
14:48:50 <Zakim> Tori, you wanted to discuss Jamie (can't access IRC)
14:49:15 <JJ> ACTION: Create "accessibility interface" definition
14:49:26 <JJ> Zakim, move to next agendum
14:49:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap -- taken up [from JJ]
14:49:46 <pauljadam> JJ: moving to no keyboard trap SC discussion
14:49:55 <Tori> I'd prefer something like "All functionality of the content is operable through a keyboard interface //or the standard mobile input// without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes..."
14:49:55 <Tori> It needs a lot more iterations to get it right, but we need something way tighter if we do this. It needs to focus on the operable part of an accessibilty interface and not be generic
14:50:49 <pauljadam> JJ: flutter issues could be flagged under 2.1.2
14:51:40 <pauljadam> JJ: keyboard focus using a keyboard interface, keyboard interface could be replaced with accessibility interface and could replace keyboard focus with accessibility focus
14:51:55 <pauljadam> Jamie: WCAG2ICT definition different
14:52:43 <JJ> ACTION: Check why WCAG2ICT does not have Non-Interference section
14:52:50 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG2ICT removed conformance requirement 5 and replaced the word page with non-web document or software
14:53:23 <Tori> +1 to add back in Section 5 of WCAG
14:54:05 <pauljadam> JJ: note 1, note 2 exit methods escape key, note 3 focus/keyboard traps
14:55:04 <pauljadam> JJ: how well known to standard exit methods need to be known, e.g., android back gesture, iOS Z gesture
14:55:28 <pauljadam> JJ: should this group address these exit gestures
14:55:35 <JJ> q?
14:56:10 <pauljadam> JJ: long press not keyboard shortcut
14:56:50 <pauljadam> +q
14:57:00 <Joe_Humbert> switch access has a go back command
14:57:08 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:57:39 <pauljadam> JJ: does there need to be visible exit button or do standard exit gestures work
14:57:44 <JJ> ACTION: Add examples of accessibility interface exit functionality (Escape, "Go Back", Z-gesture, etc.)
14:57:51 <pauljadam> pauljadam: want to build good bad examples of these
14:58:11 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/30
14:58:16 <pauljadam> JJ: see if there are any comments on github
14:58:45 <pauljadam> JJ: or move on to other SCs until we made a decision on keyboard and keyboard trap
14:59:07 <pauljadam> Jamie: should be list keyboard interface definition issue
14:59:11 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
14:59:11 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:59:32 <pauljadam> Jamie: need to different between SC that use just keyboard or keyboard interface
14:59:40 <JJ> ACTION: Add SC's affected by "keyboard interface" to the issue for the definition - Jamie
15:00:17 <pauljadam> JJ: double check open PR in GitHub
15:01:23 <Illai> Illai has left #matf
15:01:37 <JJ> Thx for scribing pauljadam.
15:01:40 <JJ> scribe+ pauljadam
15:01:52 <JJ> PR: https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/96/files#diff-55b5bad7ce674a1ccf6bf170c295dd26f0e8693288f424cbd939ae7ee81f4e99
15:06:01 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:06:29 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-actions.rdf :
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Look into Conformance section adaptions for Mobile Applications [1]
15:06:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc#T14-44-50
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Create "accessibility interface" definition [2]
15:06:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc#T14-49-15
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Check why WCAG2ICT does not have Non-Interference section [3]
15:06:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc#T14-52-43
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add examples of accessibility interface exit functionality (Escape, "Go Back", Z-gesture, etc.) [4]
15:06:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc#T14-57-44
15:06:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add SC's affected by "keyboard interface" to the issue for the definition - Jamie [5]
15:06:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-matf-irc#T14-59-40
15:06:35 <JJ> zakim, bye
15:06:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, jeroen, Tanya, RobW, pauljadam, Illai, AlainVagner, Karla, Carol, Aash, !
15:06:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf