18:06:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
18:06:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-aria-at-irc
18:06:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:06:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
18:06:35 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
18:06:49 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:06:51 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:06:56 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
18:07:03 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
18:07:15 <jugglinmike> present+ mmoss
18:11:13 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
18:11:16 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
18:11:38 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
18:12:10 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/February-12%2C-2025-Agenda
18:12:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
18:13:12 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'd like to discuss issue #1195 for the "disclosure" test plan
18:13:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
18:14:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday, March 10
18:14:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next Community Group Meeting: Thursday February 20
18:14:37 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
18:14:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Same 11 plans. We have some issues that we're working on resolving to move some of those forward
18:15:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The draft review and refactoring--that's current as of today. Four plans in "Draft review" (five in the test queue, but the "disclosure" plan is just a re-run)
18:15:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And two "slider" plans which are very close
18:15:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In terms of testing schedule for the next few months, IsaDC and I are still working on that. We hope to be able to talk about it next week
18:16:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing status
18:16:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can review the test queue in order
18:17:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Starting with "disclosure navigation menu" example re-run
18:17:12 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1195
18:17:28 <jugglinmike> mmoss: This one stumped me a bit. I wonder if it's due to differences in macOS...
18:17:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the issue primarily with the output?
18:18:02 <jugglinmike> mmoss: There was specifically the test where you navigate from an expanded disclosure button to the page link using "tab"
18:18:25 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Similarly, when you use "shift+tab" and move from the collapsed disclosure button to a link in the dropdown
18:18:42 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Tab and "shift+tab" did not seem to actually function for me. Which is bizarre
18:18:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, that's what your AT responses look like to me
18:19:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That almost seems slightly unbelievable
18:19:26 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Right. I've re-run the test several times because I thought I was missing something
18:19:46 <jugglinmike> mmoss: It's not that it does nothing. Instead of the screen reader's cursor moving into the menu, it moves from the button you're currently on to the next button
18:19:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, so, skipping over all the links (because the links appear in between)
18:20:00 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Right
18:22:33 <jugglinmike> mmoss: This is test 9, specifically after "tab"
18:27:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm encountering a different behavior. This doesn't feel like a VoiceOver problem, though
18:28:09 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I ran it, and it goes to the link after pressing "tab"
18:28:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hm, this time, it worked! It went to "overview"
18:29:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, I am not running with default VoiceOver settings at this moment.
18:29:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I just re-ran it, and this time, it went to "administration"!
18:29:41 <jugglinmike> mmoss: That's what I've been observing
18:30:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, I'm in Chrome! I'm not supposed to be in Chrome!
18:30:49 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Yeah, I've been testing Safari
18:31:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, that doesn't bode well for Chrome, but that's a separate concern.
18:31:46 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I've run it twice, now, and it goes to the correct place
18:32:01 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm using Safari version 18.2
18:32:10 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'm using Safari 18.3
18:32:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: First time in Safari, it worked for me--it went to the "current page" link
18:32:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And two times in a row, it demonstrated the expected behavior
18:34:36 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm installing an update, now
18:34:47 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: To see if I can reproduce the behavior that mmos reported
18:37:30 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I checked Joe's results. Joe was running with Safari version 14
18:37:48 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Really? That shouldn't be accepted by the app because I specified the version...
18:38:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we require a minimum version, and then you put in a version that's older than that, you shouldn't even be allowed to run the test
18:38:25 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I don't know what's going wrong
18:38:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There might be an issue with the app, then, howard-e
18:38:48 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: This is the "disclosure navigation" test plan
18:39:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I set the minimum version to 15
18:39:23 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: And Joe was able to run with version 14
18:39:30 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I'll make a note and check out what happened there
18:39:40 <jugglinmike> mmoss: There was one more conflict
18:39:50 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Test 14, "activate the link"
18:40:10 <jugglinmike> mmoss: When I do it, it takes a beat, and then I hear the activation click, and then it says "you are currently on a region"
18:40:40 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Joe reported the sound
18:40:42 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I don't think that's correct for us to record because it is a sound; it's not output
18:41:05 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
18:41:16 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: we don't record "Earcons"?
18:41:28 <jugglinmike> mmoss: No; I think Joe just typed that in
18:41:49 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I'm curious why we don't consider earcons
18:42:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've never encountered a situation where that would be considered...
18:42:08 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
18:42:24 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think we have (like the toggle button case), but we don't have anything in the app
18:42:47 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: There's nothing in the app which allows us to describe an earcon
18:43:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I could imagine us doing that, but when you're running a screen reader with its default state and default verbosity... At least so far, we haven't encountered any situation where an appropriate default response would be to only make a sound
18:44:04 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I think there might be some scenarios where we do encounter that as the expected output, but maybe we just haven't reached those scenarios, yet
18:45:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The way to get rid of these conflicts--it seems on the surface like they may all be related to version mismatches. Getting everyone on the same version is probably going to be our first step toward getting these resolved
18:45:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have "radio group using active descendant."  A brand new version
18:46:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have some work that's already been done--let's see how much of that has been preserved
18:46:21 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Some of that has very old data
18:46:26 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'm happy to start over on that one
18:46:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, for JAWS, we have Hadi, and it shows 8 of 15 tests complete. Are you concerned about the 8 tests completed by Hadi which might need to be re-run
18:47:20 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yes. My concern is that on the NVDA table, we recently re-ran them and have very difference results
18:47:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like your run of JAWS also has 8 of 15 complete
18:48:01 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: But I had zero before--I hadn't run it. Where are those eight coming from? From a very old version?
18:48:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hmm, okay. It's possible that you need to validate those results, then
18:48:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could delete Alyssa's run, here. That means we would need to get another person for NVDA
18:49:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For JAWS "radio group active descendant", we have IsaDC and Hadi
18:49:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we keep those assignment as-is?
18:49:21 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm happy with that. We would just have to double-check that the results still match
18:49:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could ask Hadi to just run the seven and check for conflicts
18:49:39 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can e-mail Hadi
18:49:53 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I can run the NVDA test plan
18:50:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We can use the bot for that, first, and then assign you
18:50:09 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Thanks!
18:50:58 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'll delete Alyssa, run the bot, and add mmoss and myself
18:51:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then, for VoiceOver, we have IsaDC, Joe, and mmoss
18:51:31 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: But that data is incorrect
18:51:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: mmoss can you do both VoiceOver and NVDA?
18:51:52 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Sure thing. I'll wipe my previous results and run through the test, again
18:52:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Joe had results, but the results he got imported into the test plan are not the same
18:52:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we want Joe to get his Mac updated before we ask him to run more tests
18:52:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, IsaDC, we might need you to run the VoiceOver one unless you want to write Joe and ask him to get his mac updated
18:53:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Dean said he is available in the note where he said he couldn't attend today
18:53:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering if--we could have Dean and mmoss do VoiceOver for this
18:54:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But I think we should focus on getting one of them done. Let's do the "active descendant", first, and get them all done. Then, if we have more bandwidth, we'll go to the next "radio" plan
18:54:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I guess we're just a little short on testers at this moment
18:54:59 <jugglinmike> Topic: App issue 1162 - Generating updated reports for new AT releases
18:55:07 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at-app/issues/1162
18:55:11 <jugglinmike> present+ stalgia
18:55:16 <jugglinmike> stalgia: We had some time to internally align on this
18:55:51 <jugglinmike> stalgia: With the addition of a new panel and the need for that panel to be public-facing, we agreed that the most appropriate place was the "data management" plan
18:55:56 <jugglinmike> s/plan/page/
18:56:15 <jugglinmike> stalgia: I'm excited to do some rethinking about how to reduce complexity on some pages, but that doesn't need to happen at this moment
18:56:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are you thinking an "automated run history" or something like that as a separate table?
18:56:59 <jugglinmike> stalgia: Pretty much. I think you wanted an interactive UI for initiating runs to be above the table, but I think we can put it below the table
18:57:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As long as we have something that allows us to see that administrative action is required
18:57:16 <jugglinmike> stalgia: Great, that makes sense
18:57:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Will you update 1162 with a revision of that top comment? A sort of description of what the UI will be?
18:57:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we can stub it out there and then we can review in the actual UI
18:57:57 <jugglinmike> stalgia: that makes sense. We can do that
18:58:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is going to be a really big deal! Especially when we have the latest versions of all the screen readers so we can re-run all the test plans. So, thank you!
18:58:49 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:58:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, IsaDC, mmoss, Matt_King, Michael_Fairchild, James_Scholes, stalgia
18:58:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:58:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/12-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:59:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:59:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
19:00:57 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:00:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items