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20:10:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-irc
20:10:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:10:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), caribou
20:10:30 <caribou> zakim, this is Data Shapes
20:10:30 <Zakim> got it, caribou
20:10:55 <caribou> zakim, save this conference description
20:10:55 <Zakim> this conference description has been saved, caribou
20:11:49 <caribou> Regrets: Gregg Kellogg
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21:01:15 <ajnelson-nist> present+
21:01:20 <HolgerK> present+
21:01:52 <betehess> present+
21:02:01 <Robert> present+
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21:02:38 <AndyS> present+
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21:03:51 <bergos> present+
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21:04:20 <elianaP> zakim, start meeting
21:04:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
21:04:21 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), elianaP
21:04:21 <caribou> present+ Carine
21:04:24 <kishorebanala> present+
21:04:32 <TallTed> present+
21:04:36 <caribou> Meeting: Data Shapes WG teleconference
21:04:41 <caribou> Chair: Eliana
21:05:24 <YoucTagh> present+
21:05:48 <betehess> scribe: betehess
21:06:37 <betehess> topic: spec version / URIs
21:06:51 <betehess> elianaP: I believe Carine made a proposal?
21:07:07 <betehess> caribou: I believe HolgerK already merged the PR? Confirmed
21:07:21 <betehess> ... we had a reference to recommendation of SHACL
21:07:32 <betehess> ... i.e. previous version, ending with /tr/shacl
21:07:40 <betehess> ... would become URIs for latest work
21:07:59 <betehess> ... so makes sense to use as stable URI for the work
21:08:12 <betehess> ... /tr/shacl will be the shortname
21:08:23 <betehess> topic: Way of working (see also discussion under #230)
21:08:37 <betehess> elianaP: I believe AndyS has made a proposal?
21:08:46 <betehess> AndyS: yes I did
21:08:55 <betehess> elianaP: not everyone can attend all meetings
21:09:10 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #data-shapes
21:09:17 <betehess> ... not sure what's the general approach, but proposing to work async
21:09:28 <betehess> ... if big decision has to be made, we announce ahead of time
21:09:29 <AndyS> s/made a proposal/asked some questions/
21:09:56 <TallTed> q+ to ask about minutes from prior meetings
21:10:01 <betehess> ... @@@
21:10:15 <betehess> ... would be good to address follow-ups during meetings time slots
21:10:49 <betehess> TallTed: in precvious incarnation of this group
21:11:02 <betehess> ... small numbers of @@@ participants
21:11:09 <betehess> ... small percentage of the group was impacted
21:11:30 <betehess> ... saw the 4am meeting time *after* it had happened
21:11:52 <betehess> elianaP: I believe that the meetings are accessable somewhere
21:11:54 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2025/01/20-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:11:56 <betehess> ... not sure where
21:12:09 <betehess> caribou: it's on the calendar page for the group, pasting here
21:12:11 <caribou> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/data-shapes/calendar/
21:12:17 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2025/02/03-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:12:20 <betehess> TallTed: default location is perfect
21:12:40 <betehess> elianaP: what's the actionable approached suggested otherwise?
21:12:59 <betehess> TallTed: typical w3c practice: decision made in a call, the group has a week to respond to it
21:13:12 <betehess> ... anybody can make a formal objection at any point
21:13:21 <betehess> ... but it's a heavy lift if happens after > 1 week
21:13:26 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:13:31 <betehess> elianaP: sounds reasonable
21:13:32 <TallTed> q-
21:13:54 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: ony question is shortest expecting timing w.r.t. resolution?
21:14:07 <betehess> ... 8 days windows after decision is announced?
21:14:24 <betehess> elianaP: just heard one week?
21:14:50 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: so someone announces something yesterday, could be discussed today, then closed the week after?
21:15:00 <betehess> caribou: not expected to vote on all decisions
21:15:07 <betehess> ... decisions will be recorded in the meetings
21:15:12 <betehess> ... people can chime in later
21:15:16 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/02/03-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:15:16 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/02/17-data-shapes-minutes.html
21:15:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:15:30 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:15:35 <betehess> ... call for consensus involves responding by email
21:15:39 <betehess> ... or github
21:15:44 <betehess> ... email preferred
21:15:53 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: thanks
21:15:58 <elianaP> q
21:16:06 <bergos> q+
21:16:23 <betehess> bergos: about PRs
21:16:31 <caribou> s/call for consensus/For publication decisions, Call for Consensus/
21:16:42 <betehess> ... as an editor, want to know when to turn something into a PR
21:16:58 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:17:00 <betehess> ... do we need to make a decision here as well?
21:17:09 <AndyS> ack bergos
21:17:12 <betehess> elianaP: anyone with more experience?
21:17:24 <betehess> AndyS: case by base basic?
21:17:42 <betehess> ... if the editor sees concensus emerging, then a PR could be opened
21:17:55 <betehess> ... very difficult to know on issue, it's not binary
21:18:07 <bergos> q-
21:18:07 <betehess> ... so it has to be judgement call
21:18:27 <betehess> ... also don't want editors to go down too many tracks
21:18:34 <betehess> ... not a good use of time
21:18:53 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: speaking as someone who was forward with an issue
21:19:05 <betehess> ... should anyone feel free to open an PR?
21:19:13 <betehess> ... or is that editor-only delegation?
21:19:16 <AndyS> q+
21:19:16 <TallTed> +1 anyone can start a PR, just like anyone can create an issue
21:19:27 <betehess> elianaP: in my experience, it's good for people to open PR
21:19:34 <betehess> ... as long as people maintain their branches
21:19:43 <betehess> ... then it's up to editors to decide when appropriate to merge
21:19:52 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:19:54 <betehess> ... any objectin with people making PR?
21:20:25 <betehess> caribou: my advice is that if it's something not controversial, if you are editor, you can ask people to commenn against PR
21:20:39 <betehess> ... otherwise, you open issue and get the group to discuss, before you open a PR
21:20:55 <betehess> ... if not a editor, you might opening PR e.g., fixing typo, small PR, etc.
21:20:56 <TallTed> q+
21:21:09 <betehess> ... default is to open issues
21:21:24 <betehess> AndyS: anyone can open PR, it's like code, so please submit PRs
21:21:47 <betehess> ... better to pair with issues
21:22:04 <betehess> ... because logs might not reflect decisions
21:22:34 <betehess> ... related to that: which merge policy to use? merge commit? rebase? squash?
21:22:42 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: strong pref for merge commit
21:22:51 <betehess> ... so we do not loose info from git blame
21:23:02 <betehess> caribou: typically we don't squash and don't rebase
21:23:12 <betehess> AndyS: not rebasing main, only the PR
21:23:28 <betehess> ... so that when a PR is merged, no loosing of history *on* main
21:23:42 <betehess> ... avoiding useless PR titles
21:24:01 <betehess> ... e.g, when using git UI "squash and merge"
21:24:10 <betehess> caribou: right, hence opening issues
21:24:15 <betehess> q+
21:24:22 <AndyS> ack me
21:24:40 <betehess> ... my advice is strongly to discuss with WG, then open issue, then open PR
21:24:44 <betehess> ... always open issue first
21:25:21 <betehess> TallTed: reason to open issue in parallel of PR, is because discussion history gets lost
21:25:32 <betehess> ... it's important to know how decision came to be
21:25:47 <betehess> ... also in my experinece, there's a collaborative editing process
21:25:56 <betehess> q-
21:26:09 <betehess> ... even if PR is never merged, the issue is the place for discussion
21:26:13 <betehess> elianaP: +1
21:26:37 <betehess> ... make sure that decisions for changes are reflected both in issue and PR text
21:26:52 <TallTed> s /experinece/experience
21:27:04 <betehess> topic: Proposed Resolution: Adopt the working drafts https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/167
21:27:15 <betehess> elianaP: about PRs and time frame
21:27:25 <betehess> ... don't think we want timeframe for everything
21:27:31 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:27:58 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: if question about timeframe becomes a case per case judgment
21:28:07 <TallTed> present+ caribou
21:28:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:28:29 <betehess> ... should we have 2 people to approve merge request?
21:28:53 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:29:04 <TallTed> s|/experinece/experience|experinece/experience|
21:29:11 <betehess> ... if there's a hint of contrversion on PR, an editor can say "let's not merge yet, let's escalate to WG first"
21:29:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:29:31 <betehess> elianaP: in that case, please make addition to agenda
21:29:43 <betehess> caribou: it's always better to have ok from the group first
21:29:54 <betehess> ... unless there's truly not contrevert
21:30:25 <betehess> ... we can take 5 minutes in the group to go through PRs and vote on them getting merged
21:30:29 <TallTed> s/in my experinece/in my experience/
21:30:34 <betehess> elianaP: also good for the group to be aware
21:30:39 <elianaP> q
21:30:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:30:57 <betehess> elianaP: are we aligned?
21:31:02 <HolgerK> q+
21:31:21 <betehess> HolgerK: on the main branch / gh-pages
21:31:22 <TallTed> s|s experinece/experience||
21:31:30 <betehess> ... should we make it as protected?
21:31:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
21:32:00 <betehess> AndyS: one thing is to make it protected, would protect history for ever
21:32:00 <betehess> ... we need that
21:32:05 <betehess> ... then we can have rules for merging
21:32:17 <betehess> elianaP: not everyone should be able to merge into main
21:32:31 <betehess> AndyS: could be a problem e.g., admin page
21:32:39 <betehess> ... which is in the same gh branch
21:32:47 <betehess> caribou: we can create another branch for that
21:32:57 <betehess> elianaP: and then we can merge later
21:33:16 <betehess> caribou: now gh-branch requires approval
21:33:26 <betehess> elianaP: sounds fine
21:33:37 <betehess> ... agenda should eventually make it into main
21:33:55 <betehess> ... doesn't have to be merged every week
21:34:12 <betehess> ... any reason not to merge to main?
21:34:17 <betehess> caribou: we have no main branch
21:34:32 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: primary branch is gh-pages
21:34:39 <betehess> AndyS: make every meeting a PR
21:34:50 <betehess> elianaP: maybe once a semester
21:35:27 <betehess> ... hearing no objection
21:35:45 <TallTed> q?
21:36:00 <TallTed> ack HolgerK
21:36:02 <AndyS> ack HolgerK
21:36:02 <betehess> q- HolgerK
21:36:16 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:36:25 <betehess> topic: Scribe rotation
21:36:36 <betehess> elianaP: would be nice to know in advance so that we don't need to ask
21:36:55 <betehess> ... if there are 2 chairs, maybe the other one can scribe?
21:37:07 <betehess> ... but not opposed to rotating scribes
21:37:17 <betehess> ... not sure how it's done in other groups
21:37:33 <betehess> caribou: several ways to do it
21:37:41 <betehess> ... Zakim bot can find a scribe
21:37:47 <AndyS> zakim, pick a victim
21:37:47 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose kishorebanala
21:37:50 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TallTed
21:38:03 <betehess> ... e.g., zakim, pick a victim
21:38:28 <betehess> ... if someone can't do it for _any_ reason they can opt out
21:38:38 <betehess> elianaP: we can do that
21:38:46 <betehess> ... ideally we'd have volunteers too
21:39:12 <betehess> caribou: if noone designated in advance, then zakim can used
21:39:31 <betehess> ... also want to avoid someone who needs to speak during the meeting
21:39:38 <betehess> ... e.g., making a presentation
21:39:55 <betehess> elianaP: ok, for next few meetings, will try to identify scribes in advance
21:40:35 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: can scribe on 4pm, not so much 4am
21:40:39 <ajnelson-nist> zakim help
21:40:43 <caribou> https://www.w3.org/guide/meetings/zakim.html
21:40:44 <betehess> ... any place to learn about Zakim?
21:40:54 <TallTed> Zakim, help
21:40:54 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
21:40:56 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
21:40:56 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
21:40:56 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
21:40:56 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
21:40:57 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
21:40:57 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
21:40:57 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
21:40:57 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
21:40:57 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
21:40:57 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
21:40:58 <betehess> AndyS: you can use zakim, help
21:40:59 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
21:40:59 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
21:40:59 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
21:41:00 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
21:41:00 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
21:41:00 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2020/12/31 21:20:53 $
21:41:33 <caribou> https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
21:41:36 <elianaP> q
21:41:42 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:42:23 <betehess> topic: Proposed Resolution: Adopt the working drafts https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/167
21:42:34 <betehess> HolgerK: this was original input from previous WG
21:42:41 <betehess> ... just took old spec
21:42:49 <betehess> ... divided into core and sparql
21:43:01 <betehess> ... I thought there were no objection so far
21:43:06 <betehess> ... so merged to main branch
21:43:22 <betehess> ... as it's official starting point, we should vote on that
21:43:32 <betehess> ... it's pure syntactic split
21:43:38 <betehess> ... no semantic change
21:43:45 <betehess> ... preserving everything from old spec
21:43:54 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:43:55 <betehess> ... so it's shacl 1.0 split into 2 docs
21:44:08 <betehess> ... few things to be fixes by editors later
21:44:35 <betehess> ... then there will be other docs following same naming schemes
21:44:58 <betehess> elianaP: no objection from other editors?
21:45:07 <betehess> ... what is the exact process here?
21:45:16 <TallTed> q+
21:45:23 <betehess> HolgerK: in the previous group, we used to have votes on proposal
21:45:36 <betehess> ... people can say +1 and -1 and everything in between
21:45:45 <betehess> ... not sure if same process applies
21:45:57 <betehess> caribou: we could just ask if there's any objection
21:46:10 <AndyS> q+
21:46:11 <betehess> ... there should be no objection
21:46:23 <betehess> elianaP: should we use this as example of voting async?
21:46:31 <betehess> caribou: I don't think in this case
21:47:04 <betehess> ... no need for CFC call for concensus
21:47:20 <betehess> TallTed: it is the way to participate in the group
21:47:44 <betehess> caribou: CFC is for publication decision
21:48:11 <betehess> ... will follow up with people outside of this meeting
21:48:38 <betehess> ... consensus in WG is evaluated by the chairs
21:48:48 <betehess> ... if objections, there's a way already to do that formally
21:49:01 <betehess> ... CFC are mostly for transitions of publication status
21:49:10 <betehess> ... this draft is not published yet, it's just a draft
21:49:14 <AndyS> q+ to say that a resolution goes into the minutes (and is findable later) - bots do the work.
21:49:25 <betehess> ... for first publication, there will be a CFC
21:49:35 <betehess> ... so I do not see problem with proceeding here
21:49:55 <betehess> elianaP: got it. people can voice objection at any time anyway
21:50:02 <betehess> ... just not needed right now
21:50:06 <elianaP> q
21:50:19 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: Q not about process
21:50:31 <betehess> ... HolgerK: do you expect links to be live somewhere?
21:50:38 <ajnelson-nist> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/
21:50:39 <betehess> ... as in, rendered somewhere
21:50:56 <betehess> ... the shacl core spec doesn't resolve I think
21:51:09 <ajnelson-nist> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-sparql/ - does not resolve
21:51:11 <betehess> ... just checking what's expected here
21:51:16 <ajnelson-nist> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl-core/ - does not resolve
21:51:20 <betehess> HolgerK: haven't tried, will check
21:51:33 <AndyS> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl12-sparql/
21:51:35 <betehess> ajnelson-nist: ok, just don't know where to find those docs
21:51:42 <caribou> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl12-core/
21:51:56 <betehess> AndyS: pasted link
21:52:00 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:52:06 <ajnelson-nist> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl12-sparql/ - DOES work, thank you!
21:52:28 <elianaP> ack TallTed
21:52:37 <betehess> AndyS: would like the resolution into the minutes
21:52:44 <betehess> ... then it will be resolved in the minutes
21:52:48 <betehess> ... easier to find later too
21:53:01 <elianaP> q
21:53:05 <YoucTagh> q+
21:53:08 <AndyS> ack me
21:53:08 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say that a resolution goes into the minutes (and is findable later) - bots do the work.
21:53:42 <betehess> YoucTagh: to get the latest editor version, you can go to editor repo, then you take the path, it should work
21:53:45 <Robert> q+
21:53:55 <YoucTagh> ack me
21:54:21 <betehess> Robert: what tools people use for editing?
21:54:25 <betehess> ... directly edit the HTML?
21:54:27 <AndyS> ack Robert
21:54:29 <betehess> ... first time editor here
21:54:38 <YoucTagh> q+
21:55:12 <betehess> YoucTagh: I just clone the repo, make sure I'm on the right branch, then use liveserver to get the preview, and then push
21:55:15 <YoucTagh> ack me
21:55:32 <betehess> AndyS: there's a system call ReSpec by W3C
21:55:35 <AndyS> See https://respec.org/docs/
21:55:40 <betehess> ... best way is to learn from other docs
21:55:59 <betehess> caribou: also spec@@@ mailing list to talk to other editors
21:56:01 <caribou> spec-prod@w3.org
21:56:16 <elianaP> q
21:56:22 <Robert> q-
21:56:26 <caribou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/
21:56:34 <betehess> s/spec@@@/spec-prod@w3.org/
21:56:42 <betehess> elianaP: any last minute remarks/questions?
21:56:43 <ajnelson-nist> q+
21:56:57 <ajnelson-nist> q-
21:57:11 <betehess> ... done within the hour!
21:57:15 <caribou> RESOLUTION: approve PR 167
21:57:21 <betehess> ... hope to see you next week at 9am UTC
21:57:29 <betehess> ... have a nice day/night!
21:57:57 <AndyS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
21:57:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html AndyS
21:58:06 <ajnelson-nist> I think it's scribe-?
21:58:29 <ajnelson-nist> present-
22:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/10-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
23:53:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #data-shapes
23:59:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #data-shapes