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18:49:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:49:06 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
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19:07:32 <howard-e> present+
19:07:37 <Daniel> scribe+ howard-e
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19:08:46 <Jem> present+
19:09:08 <howard-e> [going over agenda]
19:09:12 <CurtBellew> present+
19:09:23 <arigilmore> present+
19:11:00 <howard-e> topic: Publication Status
19:11:18 <howard-e> Topic: Publication Status
19:11:31 <howard-e> We are still moving towards Feb 25 date
19:11:44 <howard-e> We have no changes but moving towards getting items ready for that
19:11:52 <howard-e> The big one being around the color settings practice
19:12:14 <howard-e> Topic: Practice Page for Supporting color settings
19:12:26 <howard-e> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
19:12:48 <howard-e> Matt_king: The most visible change is that we've changed the title to Supporting Color Contrast Settings
19:13:01 <howard-e> Matt_King: This affected the practices page
19:13:24 <howard-e> Matt_King: 2 links are here. One to the revised Practices Page but not much to look at here
19:14:06 <howard-e> Matt_King: It's fairly placed down the page but wonder what others think on this
19:14:47 <howard-e> Matt_King: Supporting Color Contrast Settings is the 6th card based on the page structure. The description I put is the first couple sentences from the page
19:15:07 <Matt_King> Snippet from practices page:
19:15:09 <Matt_King> Some people need more than the required default minimum color contrast to perceive content. make content responsive to operating system color and contrast
19:15:10 <Matt_King> settings so it meets people's needs for different colors or higher contrast.
19:15:47 <howard-e> Matt_King: This is essentially our marketing text for that page
19:16:17 <jongund> q+
19:16:34 <howard-e> Matt_King: At some point, I wanted to use the word "high" or "higher" contrast. We eliminated that from the title so included it in the description
19:17:08 <howard-e> Matt_King: The thinking I had here is for people's perception of different colors
19:17:38 <howard-e> Matt_King: The very first sentence doesn't address it fully because some people need more than the minimum default contrast. We have to be careful not to be too wordy
19:17:47 <howard-e> present+ Adam_Page
19:18:02 <howard-e> Adam_Page: I also had a reaction to the first sentence that's important to perceiving the content
19:18:19 <howard-e> Adam_Page: Another rationale is about the comfort or cognitive ease of interpreting the page
19:18:32 <howard-e> Adam_Page: Thinking for example of folks with migraines who prefer dark mode
19:18:56 <howard-e> Matt_King: We could make this first sentence a little longer. Maybe we don't need the words "to perceive the content"
19:19:13 <howard-e> Matt_King: Maybe we can just say "some people need" ...
19:19:34 <howard-e> Adam_Page: I agree. Would like to just get rid of the first sentence and say something like "It meets peoples' needs or preferences"
19:19:43 <howard-e> jongund: I think we could go with just the 2nd sentence
19:19:58 <howard-e> Matt_King: I think you're right jongund. We Can eliminate the first sentence
19:20:26 <howard-e> Matt_King: I will make that change. That will cause me to do a bit of editorial at the top of the page so I will revise the introduction a little based on this discussion
19:20:42 <howard-e> Matt_King: I would like to spend a bit of time deep diving into the instructions in the first section
19:21:03 <howard-e> Jem: [sharing screen to display User Options for Adjusting Color Contrast]
19:21:22 <howard-e> Matt_King: This made me realize we might not have the word "contrast" in this section
19:21:24 <Jem> https://deploy-preview-380--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/color-settings/
19:21:44 <howard-e> Matt_King: Should it just be "user options for adjusting colors"?
19:21:52 <howard-e> Matt_King: Or "Colors and Contrast"?
19:21:58 <howard-e> Adam_Page: I like that
19:22:38 <howard-e> Matt_King: Okay so in this table's description column, I made quite a few changes because I felt it important to tell authors what happens if "I don't do anything to support this"
19:23:02 <howard-e> Matt_King: Like in the "Invert Colors" row, if the user does this then everything happens automatically
19:23:11 <howard-e> Matt_King: They just get these alternate colors
19:24:24 <howard-e> Matt_King: In the Practices column, I shared that to ensure your site is rendered well and meet minimum color requirements of WCAG
19:24:43 <howard-e> Matt_King: This is so they know that this is what happens
19:25:30 <howard-e> Matt_King: The next 2 also note is not automatically changed by the operating system -- so the setting only works when authors provide support
19:25:46 <howard-e> Matt_King: I put that in "Increase Contrast" and "Color Scheme" rows
19:26:00 <howard-e> Matt_King: Are these statements accurate for those 2 rows?
19:26:11 <howard-e> jongund: I would say "rendering of apps"
19:26:29 <howard-e> jongund: I don't know if typically is needed. I don't know if there's any browsers that changes rendering based on that setting
19:26:34 <howard-e> Matt_King: Some browsers do
19:26:40 <howard-e> jongund: I suppose Chrome does
19:26:52 <howard-e> Matt_King: yes, when I'm saying app, I'm meaning the browser
19:27:49 <howard-e> Matt_King: Should we say "native app" there so it's clear?
19:28:00 <howard-e> howard-e: I didn't but I could see others interpreting it that way
19:28:39 <howard-e> Daniel: Can we use content ... [missed]
19:29:13 <howard-e> Matt_King: I'm thinking in some of these cases, the browser changing may cause some of these changes
19:29:32 <howard-e> Daniel: I wasn't clear that "app" was for that so maybe we should make it clear
19:29:45 <howard-e> jongund: Yep, maybe we should say the rendering app includes browser
19:30:08 <howard-e> jongund: So breaking it up so when users increase contrast, the browser rendering changes but not the browser content
19:30:33 <howard-e> Matt_King: Well the apps won't change unless the app actively supports "Increase Contrast", in iOS at least
19:30:47 <howard-e> jongund: Well I suppose if people build their own way
19:31:10 <howard-e> Matt_King: I don't know but maybe some frameworks support and some don't. The author would have to choose to build it in a way to support
19:31:18 <howard-e> Matt_King: So I don't want to say the apps are always going to do it
19:31:46 <howard-e> scribe+ Daniel
19:31:49 <Daniel> scribe+
19:32:20 <Daniel> Matt: I didn't want to say something incorrect
19:32:47 <Daniel> ... If you do nothing in dark mode or increased contrast you are not hurting users, but the browser itself may look different
19:33:27 <Daniel> jongund: Yes. Borwsers don't do anything automatically
19:33:51 <Daniel> Matt: So your browser Chrome will be in dark mode but the web that doesn't support it will render normally
19:33:57 <Daniel> jongund:  Right.
19:34:58 <Daniel> Matt: Last row of the table --description of forced colors, first sentence
19:35:44 <Matt_King> description of color themes:
19:35:45 <Matt_King> Accessibility feature that automatically forces the operating system and apps to render content using an alternative color theme chosen by the user. Some
19:35:47 <Matt_King> of the themes are designed to provide extra high contrast, and users can customize their chosen color theme. Browser default styles respond to this setting
19:35:48 <Matt_King> using the system colors described below. The user-chosen theme does not automatically override author specified colors, so content can disappear in certain
19:35:50 <Matt_King> circumstances.
19:36:52 <Daniel> jongund: Newer Windows 11 versions have this under  Accessibility > Contrast theme
19:37:42 <Daniel> Matt: I need to fix this, thank you, jongund
19:38:13 <Daniel> Matt: Firstpoint of the description is that Windows forces [...] Is that a correct statement?
19:38:19 <Daniel> jongund: Yes
19:39:09 <Daniel> Matt: Browsers respond to this setting [...] Is that correct?
19:39:33 <Daniel> jongund: Whatever style you put on your website, if it's text content, it will render with the color for text content, if it is a link it will use the link
19:39:54 <Daniel> Matt: It forces a color scheme to be used for certain kinds of contents but there's certain kinds that are excluded, right?
19:40:11 <Daniel> jongund:  Everything will be forced into something else, depends on the markup
19:40:36 <Daniel> ... Links will render on a different color. Buttons and other form controls have another color. Images are not changed
19:40:56 <Daniel> ... Probably other media too, like videos
19:41:34 <Daniel> Matt: Browsers force the user colors on all content using the semantic markup to choose a color based on the system colors
19:42:05 <Daniel> jongund: That's too far. They have their own colors. Generally they are related to system colors, but it's not clear if it's system color or some other color.
19:42:38 <Daniel> ... For example a range control tested in different contrast themes doesn't match up with any system colors foro the browser
19:43:34 <Daniel> Matt: So if you have a div role=slider it's not going to render as a slider. Does it mean that everything using ARIA is going to be rendered as a text?
19:43:52 <Daniel> jongund:  Yes if the container is text-based
19:44:34 <Daniel> Matt: ARIA markup has no effect on the choice of color the browser uses
19:45:09 <Daniel> ... the user chooses a color theme and then the user can change that, right?
19:45:24 <Daniel> jongund: Users can create their own themes, not sure if they can change existing ones
19:46:07 <Daniel> ... Seems you can choose more things from the store but you cannot put the colors yourselves
19:46:52 <Daniel> Matt: Do they tell you which colors are used when you choose the theme?
19:48:07 <Daniel> jongund: Yes, you can edit the colors, you can set background and foreground, you can pick from eight colors
19:49:09 <Daniel> Matt: Browsers choose to apply a theme t based in the type of contento elements in content
19:49:49 <Daniel> ... To some extent they use system colors in a manner that is generally consistent with the chosen system colors
19:50:01 <Daniel> jongund: You are not going to get consistent colors betwen browsers
19:50:11 <Daniel> Matt: But there are somewhat relateed with the system colors table
19:50:20 <Daniel> jongund: It's not exactly so based on my testing
19:50:57 <Daniel> Matt: I'll try to make these changes.
19:51:14 <Daniel> jongund: I might be traveling next Tuesday byt I'll try to make the meeting
19:51:44 <Daniel> Matt: If others can take a look and scrutinize the accuracy of the statements
19:52:42 <Daniel> jongund:  The browsers in general use the system colors, but they tend to pick up different colors based on different type of content
19:53:54 <Daniel> Matt: How complete is this?
19:54:17 <Daniel> jongund: I think there is more work to do. I am trying to consistently use the switch control for each of the sections to highlight what happens
19:55:07 <Daniel> ... Probably we will need to update the switch examples to be consistent with what is in here
19:55:40 <Daniel> ... We are also using SVG to render the control part of it. The div and button arejust containers. In actual switches we don't always do that
19:55:45 <Adam_Page> present+
19:55:48 <Daniel> Matt: I think we can save this for later
19:56:18 <Daniel> jongund: Current color is somewhat limiting. I would probably rely more on system colors to mimic what browsers do with standard content
19:57:10 <Daniel> Matt: Let's get at least a first versionos what we are doing it 25 Feb
19:57:34 <Daniel> jongund: Under the system colors I just put some caution notes as well
19:57:58 <Daniel> Matt: On the names pages we have a style
19:58:13 <Daniel> jongund: Let me know what is best or change it please
19:59:22 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
19:59:22 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
19:59:49 <Daniel> Topic: Expandable region
20:00:35 <Daniel> Matt: Any volunteers?
20:00:45 <Daniel> Adam: I could do somethin with this.
20:01:34 <Daniel> Adam: I'll add you to https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3215
20:01:49 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Daniel
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