09:01:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #data-shapes
09:01:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/03-data-shapes-irc
09:01:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
09:01:54 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), caribou
09:02:10 <caribou> meeting: Data Shapes WG teleconference
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09:02:31 <ajnelson-nist> present+
09:02:31 <caribou> Chair: Eliana, Nick
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09:02:39 <YoucTagh> present+
09:02:41 <elianaP> present +
09:02:41 <betehess> present+
09:02:43 <simonstey> present+
09:02:49 <AndyS> present+
09:02:50 <bergos> present+
09:02:51 <nicholascar6> present+
09:02:52 <holgerk> present+
09:03:06 <caribou> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/gh-pages/admin/agenda-2025-02-03
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09:03:55 <caribou> Scribe: Carine
09:04:00 <caribou> scribenick: caribou
09:04:01 <simonstey> present+ elianaP
09:04:27 <ajnelson-nist> Will the meeting schedule (particularly time of day) be on the agenda?
09:04:46 <betehess> q+
09:04:57 <betehess> q-
09:05:34 <caribou> Topic: Drafts and publications
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09:06:31 <jeswr> present+
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09:07:11 <kishorebanala> present+
09:07:28 <AndyS> scribe+
09:07:31 <AndyS> caribou: Publication process - start editors working drafts
09:07:41 <AndyS> ... need WG decisions for these
09:07:53 <nicholascar6> q+
09:08:12 <AndyS> ... SHACL-Core and SHACL-SPARQL
09:08:26 <caribou> Carine: Goal is to publish Core and SPARQL specs as First Public Working Draft within a month
09:08:32 <AndyS> scribe-
09:08:49 <betehess> q+ to say we are interested
09:08:54 <caribou> Topic: Editors
09:09:15 <betehess> q+ to say we Netflix are interested in the Profile spec
09:09:15 <YoucTagh> q+
09:09:19 <ajnelson-nist> q+
09:09:42 <AndyS> ack nicholascar
09:09:50 <caribou> Eliana: For Core and SPARQL we have volunteers
09:10:14 <caribou> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/167
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09:11:06 <ajnelson-nist> q-
09:11:21 <caribou> Nick: Editors can go ahead and start editing
09:11:33 <caribou> ... we have enough people to start
09:11:48 <nicholascar6> q?
09:12:01 <AndyS> ack betehess
09:12:01 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to say we are interested and to say we Netflix are interested in the Profile spec
09:12:08 <caribou> Betehess: volunteering for the profile spec
09:12:22 <caribou> ... depends on what the group wants to put in there
09:12:24 <nicholascar6> q+
09:12:58 <caribou> Youssouf: proposing to help editing Core and also profiling
09:13:03 <AndyS> ack YoucTagh
09:13:58 <nicholascar6> I have added YoucTagh & betehess to the Deliverables they've indicated in the issue
09:14:14 <caribou> Eliana: help is welcome on profiling
09:14:23 <caribou> Carine: no limit in number of editors
09:14:34 <YoucTagh> Thank you
09:14:47 <caribou> Nick: Editors can communicate directly between them
09:14:53 <betehess> Where are those scopes being discussed?
09:15:07 <caribou> ... I'm happy to fill in
09:15:38 <caribou> ... I will forward to editors what we have discussed
09:15:44 <ajnelson-nist> q+
09:15:50 <nicholascar6> I will create an Issue for the Profiles scope
09:15:53 <nicholascar6> q-
09:16:25 <caribou> AlexNelson: will the @@@?
09:16:40 <AndyS> q?
09:16:40 <nicholascar6> q?
09:17:16 <ajnelson-nist> My question was: Will the issue describing the scope (of the profiles document) relate the scope to the SHACL-AF document?
09:17:21 <caribou> Topic: Inferencing
09:17:38 <caribou> Holger: the plan is to take care of Core and SPARQL to avoid delays
09:18:09 <caribou> ... but there's early interest in Inferencing, so it would be wise to start discussing
09:19:17 <nicholascar6> Sope of Profiles Spec Issue created: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/223
09:19:28 <AndyS> s/Sope/Scope/
09:19:31 <holgerk> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/wiki/Proposal-on-Node-Expressions-for-SHACL-Core-1.2
09:19:50 <caribou> s,https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/167,https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/217,
09:20:48 <AndyS> scribe+
09:21:14 <AndyS> holgerk: rules making triples and derived properties - both are "inference"
09:21:39 <AndyS> ... table count example - counts a path expressions
09:21:55 <caribou> [Holger explains the "derived properties"
09:22:32 <AndyS> ...another example - properties that cause a condition to be checked
09:22:41 <AndyS> ... many customer examples
09:23:04 <AndyS> ... computed on-demand e.g. GraphQL request
09:23:17 <AndyS> ... value is always up-to-date
09:23:19 <AndyS> q+
09:23:39 <AndyS> ... I hope to see this in the spec in a more prominent way
09:24:18 <AndyS> ... Computed targets. More ways to give target focus nodes.
09:24:32 <AndyS> ... calculate a set of nodes can provide this
09:24:57 <AndyS> ... (extreme case) dynamic constraints - experimental
09:25:29 <AndyS> ... example - minCount is has a computed value at the time of constraint checking
09:26:16 <AndyS> ... happens on the shapes graph from the data graph
09:26:21 <ajnelson-nist> q+
09:26:29 <AndyS> ... complicates the language - a tradeoff
09:27:05 <AndyS> ... another example: "states code" depend on the country
09:27:52 <AndyS> ... we already have some kind of inferencing in SHACL e.g. path expressions
09:28:52 <AndyS> ... use blank nodes for path expressions to show they are calculated and not e.g. for a form.
09:29:52 <AndyS> ... design pattern - blank nodes lead to calculations - an extension point in Core
09:30:07 <AndyS> ... needed to give SHACL-SPARQL
09:30:34 <AndyS> ... currently "node expressions" - other names possible
09:30:49 <AndyS> ... a separate library document has the defined expressions
09:31:14 <AndyS> ... generalize property paths to all any node expressions
09:33:20 <AndyS> ... calculated properties can be ordered
09:33:32 <AndyS> ... later work has inferred triple
09:33:51 <AndyS> ... in addition to sh:path, extend sh:targetNode
09:34:53 <ajnelson-nist> Determinism question - could the order in which shapes node expressions are encountered (their shapes parsed) cause different computation results?  Should this be allowed?
09:35:16 <AndyS> ... to be discussed - more difficult to do static analysis
09:35:44 <ajnelson-nist> Recursion question - what happens if a dynamically-computed property references another dynamically-computed property?  How much do we need to control for infinite re-computations?
09:35:45 <AndyS> ... has a learning curve
09:36:03 <caribou> q+
09:36:11 <AndyS> ... inference and recursion
09:36:12 <betehess> q+
09:36:39 <ajnelson-nist> (Pardon - recursion question noted in Discussion section)
09:37:03 <AndyS> ... define a SHACL profile without node expressions
09:37:48 <caribou> AndyS: Inference means a lot of things, this is mostly calculations, expecting more inferencing
09:38:35 <caribou> ... Can you summarize exactly which are the extensions points?
09:38:36 <betehess> q-
09:39:06 <AndyS> ajnelson-nist: Recursion - will comment on GH
09:39:16 <AndyS> ... recursion needs thinking about
09:40:06 <AndyS> Github issue for discussions of node expressions : https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/222
09:40:20 <nicholascar6> q+
09:41:18 <ajnelson-nist> q-
09:42:09 <AndyS> caribou: concerned about the scope ... XSLT example
09:42:32 <AndyS> ... first version needs care
09:42:45 <AndyS> holgerk: I agree
09:43:14 <AndyS> ... one way to scope this is try to cover SPARQL which is already an extension point
09:43:23 <AndyS> ... same expressiveness
09:43:41 <AndyS> ... rdf exchange syntax for SPARQL
09:44:26 <AndyS> elianaP: This is "Spin"?
09:44:49 <simonstey> https://spinrdf.org/
09:45:00 <simonstey> q+
09:45:01 <AndyS> holgerk: old RDF description of a SPARQL query to introspec on e.f. features used.
09:45:06 <AndyS> ack nicholascar
09:45:14 <AndyS> s/e.f/e.g/
09:45:33 <AndyS> nicholascar: rules ordering
09:46:01 <AndyS> ... derived properties can rely on one another
09:46:21 <AndyS> ... can materialize, then execute
09:48:36 <AndyS> simonstey: If SPARL/RDF , do we need SHACL-SPARQL?
09:48:54 <AndyS> s,SPARL/RDF,SPARQL/RDF,
09:49:13 <AndyS> ... we have sh:order to layer computation
09:49:47 <AndyS> ... what if the sh:order affects with analysis of dependency?
09:50:09 <AndyS> ... in favour of derived properties
09:50:30 <AndyS> ... entire node expressions may be too much for this spec iteration
09:51:15 <AndyS> q+
09:52:01 <ajnelson-nist> q+
09:52:06 <AndyS> holgerk: SHACL-SPARQL defines the node expression. Maybe all needed but need string based syntax.
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09:53:10 <ajnelson-nist> q-
09:53:46 <AndyS> ack AndyS
09:54:09 <nicholascar6> AndyS indicated Node Expression discussion should be carried out at https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/issues/222
09:54:15 <caribou> Topic: Meeting Times
09:56:07 <nicholascar6> this current time alternating with 21:00 UTC
09:56:10 <AndyS> caribou: Proposal: alternating: 09:00 UTC, and  21:00 UTC
09:59:09 <betehess> q+
09:59:17 <ajnelson-nist> q+
09:59:52 <nicholascar6> Apologies all, I must leave on the hour - now!
09:59:56 <nicholascar6> present-
10:00:10 <ajnelson-nist> q-
10:00:36 <YoucTagh> I need to leave.
10:00:48 <betehess> q?
10:02:21 <betehess> ack me
10:35:51 <caribou> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:35:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/03-data-shapes-minutes.html caribou
10:37:43 <caribou> zakim, save this conference description
10:37:43 <Zakim> sorry, I have not been told a conference description for this channel, caribou
10:38:34 <caribou> zakim, save this conference description
10:38:34 <Zakim> this conference description has been saved, caribou
11:00:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items