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17:46:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:46:07 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:46:14 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:46:14 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:46:15 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20250130T130000/
17:46:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:46:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4h7M56m
17:46:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-01-23+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues
17:46:18 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:46:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:46:23 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Aligning HTML spec with ARIA's style of DOMString? reflection https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2414
17:46:26 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add Accessible Name Required row to each role's characteristics table where it is missing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2411
17:46:29 <agendabot> agenda+ -> [aria] Drop “deprecated on this role” attributes from per-role tables https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2407
17:46:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402
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17:59:08 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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18:00:45 <pkra> present+
18:00:52 <smockle> present+
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18:01:17 <katez> present+
18:01:35 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
18:02:12 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:02:15 <Rahim> present+
18:02:19 <scott> present+
18:02:22 <Adam_Page>  scribe: Adam_Page
18:02:24 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:02:24 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:02:25 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:02:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4h7M56m -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:27 <Adam_Page> present+
18:02:37 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:03:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: first issue is editorial
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18:03:24 <Adam_Page> pkra: let’s discuss now
18:03:31 <Summer> present+
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18:03:40 <StefanS> present+
18:03:46 <Adam_Page> jamesn: html-aam#575
18:04:17 <Adam_Page> pkra: can we shorten the URL in the About section in the GH repo sidebar?
18:04:24 <Adam_Page> pkra: nevermind, just closed issue
18:04:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2415
18:05:07 <Adam_Page> ... I think this falls into html-aam or ARIA in HTML
18:05:39 <Adam_Page> scott: I’ll take it or agenda it
18:05:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: html-aam#574
18:06:04 <Adam_Page> scott: absolutely going into html-aam to match HTML spec
18:06:07 <Adam_Page> ... but don’t need to agenda this
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18:06:11 <Adam_Page> ... just want people to be aware
18:06:24 <Adam_Page> ... opinions? should there be any mappings? please comment in issue
18:06:30 <Adam_Page> ... otherwise I’ll pull over as not mapped
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18:07:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2414
18:07:26 <Adam_Page> ... old thing coming back up again
18:07:29 <lola> present+
18:07:29 <Adam_Page> ... might have way forward
18:07:52 <Adam_Page> ... judging by the analysis in the issue
18:07:52 <Adam_Page> Rahim: yes, correct — we met late last year
18:07:52 <Adam_Page> ... to discuss improving ARIA IDL
18:07:57 <Adam_Page> ... one change we discussed is in HTML spec
18:08:02 <Adam_Page> ... for how nullable DOM strings reflect
18:08:25 <Adam_Page> ... ARIA has nullable DOM string
18:08:36 <Adam_Page> ... ARIA spec needs it so we can discern whether attribute is missing versus whether it has a value
18:08:41 <Adam_Page> ... e.g., aria-label
18:08:47 <Adam_Page> ... I’m ready to move forward and will raise a PR
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18:09:09 <Adam_Page> Rahim: thanks all, I’ll get started
18:09:19 <Adam_Page> jcraig: thanks for this investigation, Rahim
18:09:32 <Adam_Page> Rahim: this should help us align better with HTML spec
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18:09:52 <Adam_Page> smockle: does this align to one of the proposals we reviewed at TPAC?
18:09:52 <Adam_Page> Rahim: yes
18:10:16 <Adam_Page> ... we have lots of attributes that can be migrated to enumerated
18:10:31 <Adam_Page> jcraig: everything Rahim presented has a path forward
18:11:02 <Adam_Page> ... the only thing that was left was that we had nullable DOM strings that weren’t enumerated, but Anne said we can change that in the spec
18:11:16 <Adam_Page> ... this is the most minor change to HTML that allows the entirety of the ARIA spec to align to it
18:11:20 <Adam_Page> Rahim: one quick question
18:11:27 <jamesn> agenda?
18:11:28 <Adam_Page> ... there are a number of issues related to IDL
18:11:38 <Adam_Page> ... can I create a single board or project and create subtasks?
18:11:52 <Adam_Page> ... a lot I want to tackle together
18:11:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: you can create a project
18:12:08 <Adam_Page> ... there are new-style and old-style projects in GH; it’s a bit confusing
18:12:26 <Adam_Page> ... there used to be a way to get the old projects
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18:14:23 <Adam_Page> keithamus: I’ll see if I can find the old IDL project
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18:14:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any more on this topic? or shall we drop from agenda for future?
18:14:40 <Adam_Page> Rahim: I’ve got everything I need
18:14:46 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 5
18:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 5, -> Aligning HTML spec with ARIA's style of DOMString? reflection https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2414, dropped
18:14:48 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll drop it
18:14:50 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:14:50 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-01-23+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:15:07 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2421
18:15:30 <Adam_Page> ... thanks, Rahim. Can merge this
18:15:35 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2420
18:15:52 <Adam_Page> pkra: this is for accname
18:15:53 <Adam_Page> ... an updated link
18:16:07 <Adam_Page> jamesn: can we do this without a hardcoded link?
18:16:27 <Adam_Page> ... I’m gonna review this one to see if we can link differently
18:16:48 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2419
18:17:01 <Adam_Page> Rahim: I’ve been busy ;-)
18:17:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: does it need implementations? are there tests?
18:17:16 <Adam_Page> Rahim: yeah, I think we should write WPT tests
18:17:29 <Adam_Page> ... jcraig raised an issue that markers should contribute to accname
18:17:32 <Adam_Page> ... like a list marker
18:17:52 <Adam_Page> ... so I’ve added a step as part of CSS-generated content
18:17:52 <Adam_Page> ... appending that marker content to the accname
18:18:21 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’ll review
18:18:29 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: I’ll review
18:18:31 <Adam_Page> scott: me too
18:18:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2418
18:19:19 <Adam_Page> ... since it has a normative SHOULD, it won’t be editorial
18:19:25 <Adam_Page> ... reviewers?
18:19:38 <Adam_Page> scott: me
18:20:09 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll review
18:20:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2417
18:20:26 <Adam_Page> ... reviewers?
18:20:40 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’ll review
18:20:42 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: me too
18:21:18 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2416
18:21:34 <Adam_Page> scott: this PR was assigned to Matt a while ago
18:21:40 <Adam_Page> ... just wanted to get the ball rolling on it
18:21:58 <Adam_Page> ... all I’ve done is mention `menu` in the `aria-haspopup` area
18:22:06 <Adam_Page> ... seems to solve the original issue
18:22:16 <Adam_Page> ... maybe we could provide more for author guidance, but is it necessary?
18:22:19 <Adam_Page> jamesn: seems like a simple one
18:22:21 <Adam_Page> ... reviewers?
18:22:32 <Adam_Page> Summer: I’ll review
18:22:34 <Mario> Me too
18:23:28 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2413
18:23:35 <Adam_Page> ... in draft still
18:23:39 <Adam_Page> Rahim: we can skip this, still working
18:23:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: once it’s ready, please agenda it
18:23:57 <Adam_Page> Rahim: will do
18:24:11 <jamesn> q?
18:24:13 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:24:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: a few new-ish ones. jcraig?
18:24:32 <Adam_Page> jcraig: think I’m up to date
18:24:49 <Adam_Page> scott: nothing for me, but I’ll look through
18:25:07 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:25:07 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:25:13 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:25:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
18:25:14 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:25:14 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:25:17 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:25:17 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:25:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any deep dive proposals?
18:25:52 <Adam_Page> ... nothing scheduled
18:25:54 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:25:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:25:57 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:25:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
18:25:58 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:25:58 <Zakim> 6. -> Add Accessible Name Required row to each role's characteristics table where it is missing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2411 [from agendabot]
18:26:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: want to decide what the editor’s direction is on this
18:26:59 <Adam_Page> ... should we explicitly put Required as False instead of the absence of the Required row?
18:27:10 <Adam_Page> ... we talked about this and think it would be noisy
18:27:18 <Adam_Page> ... so instead, in section 5.2 of the spec
18:27:31 <Adam_Page> ... looking through these, some things are missing
18:27:36 <Adam_Page> ... name required, for example
18:27:52 <Adam_Page> ... so we think this should be updated
18:27:57 <scott> q+
18:28:01 <Adam_Page> ... and we can say here “if it is not present, then it is false”, or “... not set”, or whatever’s applicable
18:28:15 <Adam_Page> scott: I agree with that alternate direction
18:28:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this would be a good first issue
18:28:47 <Adam_Page> ... read through the spec to find all of them, then detail the missing ones
18:28:52 <Adam_Page> smockle: I’ll take this
18:29:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: just read the last comment in aria#2411 for direction
18:29:50 <jamesn> ack sc
18:29:52 <Adam_Page> ... thanks, smockle
18:29:52 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:29:52 <Adam_Page> ack scott
18:29:52 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Add Accessible Name Required row to each role's characteristics table where it is missing https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2411 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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18:30:09 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:30:09 <Zakim> agendum 6 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:30:14 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:30:14 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
18:30:15 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:30:15 <Zakim> 7. -> [aria] Drop “deprecated on this role” attributes from per-role tables https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2407 [from agendabot]
18:30:24 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:30:24 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> [aria] Drop “deprecated on this role” attributes from per-role tables https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2407 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:30:48 <Adam_Page> jamesn: wanted to share editors’ opinion on this
18:31:12 <Adam_Page> ... in 1.2, we moved a number of properties from being global to only being allowed on certain roles
18:31:23 <Adam_Page> ... when we did that, we deprecated rather than removed
18:31:28 <Adam_Page> ... 1) to avoid breaking the web
18:31:34 <Adam_Page> ... 2) eased our implementation
18:31:56 <Adam_Page> ... because states and properties that are non-global applied to something not allowed “MUST not be exposed” according to the spec
18:32:06 <Adam_Page> ... by making this deprecation, browsers MAY still expose them if they want to
18:32:13 <Adam_Page> ... so there would be zero implementation changes needed
18:32:35 <Adam_Page> ... so now we have a request to not make these deprecated anymore and to actually remove them
18:32:44 <Adam_Page> ... as editors, we decided to leave them deprecated for now
18:32:58 <Adam_Page> ... as something that is conforming for browsers, but still discouraged for authors
18:33:05 <Adam_Page> ... still nervous about removing them and consequences down the line
18:33:26 <Adam_Page> ... and there doesnt seem to be precedent in unversioned specs for how to remove things responsibly
18:33:40 <scott> q+
18:33:52 <Adam_Page> ... we prefer authors don‘t do this, but we more importantly don’t want to break anything
18:34:02 <Adam_Page> scott: I agree with not taking the deprecation away
18:34:06 <Adam_Page> ... but wonder if there’s a middle ground
18:34:11 <Adam_Page> ... like HTML’s obsolete section
18:34:19 <Adam_Page> ... at what point could we move stuff like this to an obsolete section
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18:34:26 <Adam_Page> ... the problem I run into with conformance checkers
18:34:34 <Adam_Page> ... is that they don’t call out the SHOULD NOTs
18:34:44 <Adam_Page> ... so authors feel more freedom than they should
18:34:58 <Adam_Page> ... we never know how a browser or an AT might expose a problem
18:35:05 <Adam_Page> ... that’s my overall problem with the SHOULD NOT state
18:35:10 <Adam_Page> ... don’t want to let authors get away with sloppiness
18:35:33 <Adam_Page> jamesn: could that be addressed with a change of language, in terms of how we define “deprecation”
18:36:11 <Adam_Page> ... in these property tables, we could take them out of the main table, and then add a more explicit “Deprecated states and properties”
18:36:19 <Adam_Page> ... don’t know if that would help, or just busywork
18:36:20 <smockle> 1?
18:36:22 <smockle> q?
18:36:34 <jamesn> ack scott
18:36:47 <Adam_Page> smockle: what you just described is similar to what HTML did
18:36:55 <Adam_Page> ... moved deprecated stuff to a collected section
18:37:07 <Adam_Page> ... HTML5 has a differently named but similar “Non-conforming” section
18:37:11 <smockle> https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/changes.html
18:37:22 <smockle> https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110405/obsolete.html
18:37:32 <Adam_Page> jamesn: moving to an entirely new section would be complicated for the ARIA spec because of some surrounding language, but it is possbile
18:37:46 <Mario> +1 fot that
18:37:52 <Adam_Page> scott: don’t know if that’s urgent right now
18:37:52 <Adam_Page> ... but I do like that idea for the future
18:37:54 <Adam_Page> ... since we have other deprecated stuff in ARIA that should be moved
18:38:04 <Adam_Page> jamesn: roies are potentially easier to move
18:38:08 <Adam_Page> ... maaaaaaaybe
18:38:21 <Adam_Page> ... there are a lot of interdependencies
18:39:54 <Adam_Page> pkra: let’s discuss in editor’s meeting
18:40:08 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:40:08 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402 -- taken up [from
18:40:12 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
18:40:30 <Adam_Page> ... a lot of discussion in the issue, as well as some sample Codepens
18:40:43 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402#issuecomment-2599512888
18:40:50 <Adam_Page> ... let’s take a look at these
18:43:17 <Adam_Page> scott: I haven’t looked at these demos yet, but I think they’re trying to show us markup patterns that we already support
18:43:35 <Adam_Page> pkra: does anyone want to take this one and deep dive into it?
18:44:35 <Adam_Page> ... let’s tag aardrian and see if he’d be interested in taking it
18:44:56 <Adam_Page> jamesn: done
18:45:06 <Adam_Page> ... any other comments?
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18:45:23 <Adam_Page> scott: will be interesting to know what the implementation cost would be
18:45:39 <Adam_Page> ... browsers need to create the rows
18:45:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: seems like something that would be useful for a bunch of implementations
18:46:51 <Adam_Page> ... I’m gonna leave agenda on this
18:46:55 <Adam_Page> ... it deserves some thought
18:47:00 <Adam_Page> ... will tag aaronlev
18:47:04 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:47:04 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Adam_Page
18:47:25 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:47:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, smockle, katez, Rahim, scott, giacomo-petri, Francis_Storr, Adam_Page, filippo-zorzi, Summer, StefanS, lola
18:47:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:47:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/30-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:47:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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