15:00:57 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 15:01:01 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-irc 15:01:05 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1 15:01:18 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Roman 15:02:00 Mizushima has joined #wot-td 15:03:05 dape has joined #wot-td 15:03:22 mjk has joined #wot-td 15:03:46 mahda has joined #wot-td 15:04:01 present+ Mahda_Noura 15:04:48 janro has joined #wot-td 15:04:56 present+ Daniel_Peintner 15:05:01 s/Jan_Roman/Jan_Romann/ 15:05:14 present+ Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:05:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:05:40 rrsagent, make log public 15:05:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:05:53 chair: Ege, Koster 15:06:21 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#January_29-30%2C_2024 15:06:26 scribenick: mahda 15:07:17 Topic: Quick Schedule 15:07:38 ege: updates on the toolchain, and binding registry 15:07:50 ...next week Wednesday will be cancelled the call, but Thursday it will take place 15:07:57 Topic: Minutes 15:08:15 -> https://www.w3.org/2025/01/15-wot-td-minutes.html Jan-15 15:08:25 Ege: Is there any issue regarding the minutes? 15:08:58 daniel: I spotted a typo, "summurize" 15:09:34 ege: "enconded" should be fixed to "encoded" 15:09:46 daniel: maybe we should use a spell checker on this document 15:10:08 kaz attempts to fix the typos 15:10:39 Minutes approved 15:11:15 Topic: Toolchain 15:11:17 scribenick: Ege 15:11:38 rrsagent, please draft the minutes 15:11:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html janro 15:11:49 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 15:11:54 mn: I checked the linkml repo to see if there are any updates 15:11:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:12:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:12:08 ... there was an update on the JSON-LD generator 15:12:11 s/linkml/LinkML/ 15:12:23 ... I used to do post processing for it 15:12:35 i/I check/scribenick: EgeKorkan/ 15:12:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:12:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:12:44 ... with inline properties in linkml, jsonld generator was not generating correctly 15:12:55 ... so a PR fixed this 15:13:24 ... however I will focus on fixing the JSON LD context file. So not about the tooling. 15:13:39 ... fixing the handwritten context file and contacting the JSON-LD group 15:13:52 ... if you want to participate, just ping me and I can invite you 15:13:58 ek: I would be interested 15:14:06 mn: anyone else? 15:14:19 jr: I would be also interested 15:15:04 ek: this shows that our post processing until it is not needed is a good idea 15:15:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:15:40 Topic: Registry 15:15:44 https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/378/files 15:15:50 https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/393 15:16:19 Ege: This contains all our requirements and process, we have some updates that I will show. We focus specifically on the inclusivity 15:16:19 s/Registry/Binding Registry/ 15:16:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:16:48 ...we should seperate the two points as mentioned by McMool 15:16:49 i/This con/scribenick: mahda/ 15:16:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:17:11 ...and Sebastian mentioned that we should accept everything, even if the binding cannot be reviewed 15:17:36 ...ideally the technical discussion should happen in this call (TD TF) 15:17:57 i|we should|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/393#issuecomment-2621656806 Feedback from the main call on Jan 29| 15:18:42 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/393#issuecomment-2621723042 Cristiano's comments 15:18:43 Cris: I commented in the PR, we forgot about an important thing, interoperability. How much these choices will affect interoperability. Sccepting everything seems good, but what if some closed implementation creates an island and creates a specific dialect and create interoperability issue 15:18:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:18:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:19:07 Ege: do you mean two implementations that conflict with each other? Do you mean the real software? 15:19:34 q+ 15:20:15 Cris: yes, probably it all nails down to create a good specification, so that even if the binding is not provided you would still be able to interoperate, but depends on how the interface is implemented. 15:20:54 ...at the end we do not know, they might create islands, and I don't know whether we want this. We need to write some text in the spec to address this 15:21:44 Ege: The problem is easier avoid with things that are public, but it can still happen, for instance different implementations of modbus 15:22:34 ...I think it would reduce the quality of the bindings, my point of view is to stick to the reviewers being able to review the document, event if it is paid. I am guessing that is not a big deal 15:22:37 cris +1 15:22:49 s/cris +1/cris: +1/ 15:24:17 q+ 15:24:27 kaz: from my viewpoint, this discussion itself is a bit vague, the point is rather that we should as WoT TD task force clarify the requirement for consensus, for that purpose we need to clarify what we mean by everything, which part or which resource, and what to be marked royalty free. 15:25:04 Ege: maybe what we can do right now is to quickly copy the comments from the different places in GitHub into one place 15:25:22 Mizushima has joined #wot-td 15:25:31 kaz: for example, if there are still 6/7 points, those points should be discussed as seperate issues 15:25:56 Ege: The problem is that the numbering could change when carried over 15:26:08 kaz: maybe it makes sense to add some concise titles to each part 15:26:16 Ege: I will give some names to each section 15:26:31 kaz: my suggestion is inline what you are thinking about Ege 15:26:41 Ege: Yes, I think so 15:26:41 q- 15:26:53 s/about Ege/about, Ege/ 15:28:07 Daniel: I agree that we should be clear on what we mean, but it seems that there are different opinions and it's hard to later on change based on this or that, because we cannot foresee everything now, and we are running into loops. I think it is unlikely that we find a solution in a short amount of time that works for everyone 15:28:29 ack dape 15:29:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:29:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:29:26 Ege: lets decide on this inclusiveness and will link a commit hash so that people can review it, and then we close the issue 15:30:17 s/requirement for consensus,/basic requirements so that we can get the whole WG consensus./ 15:30:26 s/for that pu/For that pu/ 15:30:59 s/by everything,/by "everything" here, i.e.,/ 15:31:18 ... maybe we focus on points 6,7 and 8. The 7 is whether the reviewer can access it, and 8 is tied to 6, if the document cannot be public can we have at least a summary document that we can host and is public 15:31:25 s|6/7|6 or 7| 15:31:42 s/points, those/points to be clarified, those/ 15:31:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:31:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:32:09 s/the numbering/the numbering for the remaining questions/ 15:32:13 Cris do you have opinions about the final report being available? 15:32:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:32:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:33:15 s/add some concise titles to each part/add some concise title to each part or put a subsection to each question so that we can refer to each question easily./ 15:33:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:33:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:33:24 Cris: I think we discussed earlier, that it should be easy for the reviewer, I would like to see it public, but it should at least be reviewable. I also agree with Michale McCool If something is not public, we should mark it somehow 15:33:44 s/Cris do you/Cris: do you/ 15:33:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:33:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:34:01 q? 15:34:04 Ege: What are others requirement on this question, should the binding documents be available without any payment or royalties? 15:34:11 (None) 15:34:25 Ege: I would formulate the decision 15:36:09 Ege: Writes the formulation 15:36:36 ...the formulations should be checked to not cause any legal issues 15:37:37 proposal: The binding entry DOES NOT have to be open to read, use, implement. However, the binding MUST be reviewable by the reviewers. 15:37:57 q+ 15:38:33 kaz: that is basically fine, but it would be even nicer to clarify what binding entry is, binding document doesn't have to be free 15:38:34 q- 15:38:40 proposal: The binding document linked in the registry entry DOES NOT have to be open to read, use, implement. However, the binding MUST be reviewable by the reviewers. 15:39:07 resolution: The binding document linked in the registry entry DOES NOT have to be open to read, use, implement. However, the binding MUST be reviewable by the reviewers. 15:39:40 Ege: I will commit this document to keep all opinions 15:41:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:41:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:42:47 cris has joined #wot-td 15:43:04 Ege: lets tackle point 8, it tackles whether there is a summary document that is hosted by the custodian. I would say that this kind of document will be stored to give people the idea of what it will contain. The vocabulary terms cannot be public, it's a point of discussion. We can follow Daniels point to discuss asynchronously. 15:44:13 ...with this point 6,7 and 8 clarified, we can also resolve point 3, which is about what we expect about the initial document. 15:45:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:45:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:45:15 ...are there any other opinions? 15:45:19 (None) 15:46:03 s/lets/let's/ 15:47:28 ...Ege merges the existing ideas into one: initial entry must be a correct document, meaning that: mapping at least one WoT operation, URI scheme definition, example of each mapped operation, abstract and introduction 15:47:36 q+ 15:47:40 ...is everybody fine with the suggested text? 15:48:22 q? 15:48:37 cris: please tell me if it is off topic, but what do we refer to when we call for implementation of the binding? 15:49:19 Cris: do we want to optionally, the context file where the definition goes, maybe we also want that 15:49:42 Ege: The first point we will discuss later, second point I forgot 15:49:59 cris: if you want this to be the minimum should be fine 15:50:38 Ege: in point 10, what are the required sections/contents? Ege adds the text: there should be at least one 15:50:58 ...the reviewer doesn't have to check if it makes sense for that protocol or whether it is implementable, of course they can. 15:51:15 ...this review can also be done by a non-expert of the protocol 15:51:36 are there any additional points for point 3 15:52:29 ...lets go to point 10, what do we want as the content of the document? what are the required machine-readbale documents provided on the side? 15:52:49 ...in case we go for a more stable version, we need test report or documentation of implementation experience 15:53:36 ...some weeks ago, we had the opinions that all documents should have a similar order. 15:53:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:54:15 q+ 15:54:21 ...my opinion was that there is an introduction, binding content, examples. Also having at leat one operation mapped to a protocol vocabulary term 15:54:21 s/are there any/... are there any/ 15:54:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:54:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:54:43 cris: I am ok with the section order, we have experience that this is working fine 15:54:54 q+ 15:55:07 ...maybe the discussion if we want to add a section in between? 15:55:32 Ege: this should be possible and could happen that there is sections between the ones that are required 15:56:56 kaz: i am ok with the direction itself, but if we already have some concrete expectation, like MQTT document, we can mention this content and that content. At this moment, we are really not sure about the format. We are at least expecting some concrete content. So we can mention those existing sections and content for example 15:56:59 q- 15:57:00 ack c 15:57:32 s/this content and that content/this content and that content are expected/ 15:57:42 s/really not sure/not really sure/ 15:57:54 Ege: I will quickly formulate the points for number 10 15:57:56 s/format. We/format, but we/ 15:58:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:58:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:58:23 s/content for example/content as an example/ 15:58:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:58:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:59:03 mjk has joined #wot-td 16:01:06 Ege: I would say tomorrow we can have a final document and then we can work on it asynchronously. Tomorrow we will continue this and also the use case results 16:01:27 [adjourned] 16:01:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 17:02:54 kaz has joined #wot-td 17:25:39 kaz has joined #wot-td 18:03:56 Zakim has left #wot-td 18:09:29 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 19:00:44 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 20:09:22 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 20:43:43 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 21:10:34 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:02:31 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 22:11:43 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:03:20 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:12:39 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td 23:30:29 EgeKorkan has joined #wot-td