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13:58:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:58:33 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 29 January 2025
13:58:33 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:58:41 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 29 January 2025
13:58:46 <JJ> chair+
13:58:53 <JJ> present+ Tanya
13:59:12 <JJ> regrets+ JeroenHulscher
13:59:44 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile update
13:59:47 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose
13:59:51 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.4 Resize Text
13:59:55 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.1 Keyboard
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14:01:38 <Detlev> present+
14:01:49 <JJ> Starting in 2 minutes
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14:02:14 <julianmka> present+
14:02:21 <quintinb> present+
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14:04:21 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
14:04:38 <AlainVagner> present+
14:04:38 <quintinb> Thanks Detlev
14:04:39 <Joe_Humbert> present+
14:04:40 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:04:40 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG2Mobile update -- taken up [from JJ]
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14:04:58 <Karla> present+
14:05:07 <Detlev> JJ: Working on drafting new text for guidance (shares screen)
14:05:57 <Detlev> JJ: (Reading out SCs with small variations)
14:05:59 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/82/files
14:06:45 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:06:53 <Detlev> JJ: Check if you have access to GitHub to comment - need to be part of MATF, nocht just AGWG
14:07:05 <Jamie> present+
14:07:11 <JJ> Issues labeled Drafting: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Adrafting
14:07:24 <Detlev> JJ: (sorts issues by lable drafting)
14:08:02 <Detlev> ...please comment if you have issues
14:08:09 <Detlev> ...on GitHub
14:08:38 <Detlev> ...Jamie has been woring on Abstract and Info / Background, Scope, Status
14:08:57 <Detlev> ...comparison with old Note
14:09:27 <Detlev> ...replacing pages with "view"
14:09:38 <Detlev> ...what is and what is not in scope
14:09:50 <Detlev> ...not doing wearables / watches
14:09:52 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/83/files
14:10:26 <Detlev> JJ: Soon getting ready to go for first publsihed working draft
14:10:36 <Robw> Robw has joined #MATF
14:10:38 <Detlev> ...any considerations what should be added?
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14:11:48 <Detlev> new participans: Tanja & Rob
14:11:53 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
14:12:10 <Detlev> Tanja: introduces herself - working at Abra with JJ
14:12:22 <Detlev> ...focus was audits of mobile apps
14:13:13 <Detlev> ...many questions of interpretation - have followed MATF discussions, wants to provide input from audits
14:13:47 <Detlev> ...want to reach consensus how to approach issues, find common interpreatations
14:14:33 <JJ> s/Tanja/Tanya/
14:14:52 <Detlev> Rob: iOS dev focused on a11y side of things worke dfor large customers, wants to get mobile devs interested in a11y
14:15:26 <Detlev> ...make sure that guideline sare understandable to people who are not super experts or haven't worked on webv
14:15:37 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:15:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose -- taken up [from JJ]
14:16:17 <Detlev> JJ: (pulls up github issue for 1.3.5)
14:16:51 <Detlev> JJ: we are nt using the chat in Zoom but in IRC
14:17:11 <Detlev> ...Zoom comments won't be minuted
14:17:45 <Detlev> JJ: one issue in apps is that it is different from setting input purpose, also harder to determine (no source code access)
14:17:58 <Detlev> ...so how can we audit this?
14:18:18 <Detlev> ...some properties are available on Android but not iOS
14:18:43 <Detlev> ...you can set the keyboard type, that gives some indication
14:19:09 <Detlev> ...sometimes possible to identify auto-fill property
14:19:25 <Detlev> ...Joe did some research on auto-fill
14:20:01 <Detlev> ...Detlev comment that auto-fill is just side effect comment
14:20:17 <Detlev> JJ: (reads out WCAG SC)
14:20:27 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#input-purposes
14:20:31 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#success-criterion-1-3-5-identify-input-purpose
14:20:44 <Detlev> ...list of input purposes (via autocomplete)
14:21:15 <Detlev> ...reads WCAG2ICT note on not supported attributes
14:22:00 <quintinb> You can do this in android using the input type: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/text/InputType
14:22:03 <Detlev> ...reads note 2 (eqivalent terms - but in iOS and Android they would have different names)
14:22:21 <Detlev> JJ: was considered large variation - any further thoughts?
14:22:36 <Detlev> ...what would pass, what would fail?
14:22:36 <quintinb> q+
14:22:42 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:22:47 <Tanya> q+
14:23:08 <Detlev> quintinb: LInk to Android-defined input types - should devs use that interface?
14:23:44 <Detlev> JJ: (shows equivalent for iOS)
14:23:44 <GleidsonRamos> q+
14:24:15 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:24:38 <Detlev> quintinb: can be be tested by looking at keyboard and the types of inpu in field (say stars for password)
14:25:13 <JJ> iOS equivalent: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/uitextinputtraits/textcontenttype
14:25:23 <Detlev> Tanja; We don't test it in audits so far - lacking unified approach - it should be clear how it can be tested, so that leaves room for interpretation
14:25:45 <Detlev> Tanja: Nit clear how it can be tested in standardised way
14:25:59 <Detlev> Sorry Tanya!!!
14:26:22 <quintinb> q+
14:26:25 <Jamie> q+
14:26:28 <Jon_Gibbins> I’m sure I have a link to an equivalent list of Input types for iOS, but can’t find it currenly
14:26:41 <Jon_Gibbins> Ah ha! JJ has posted it!
14:26:52 <Detlev> JJ: showing appt.org resources for 1.3.5
14:27:18 <JJ> https://appt.org/en/guidelines/wcag/success-criterion-1-3-5#solution
14:27:23 <JJ> ack GleidsonRamos
14:27:27 <Detlev> JJ: different names in different development frameworks...
14:28:07 <Detlev> Gleidson: apply to the limit possible in cross-platform environments
14:28:39 <Detlev> ...if technologies do not provide these attributes, content should pass
14:29:14 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
14:29:53 <Detlev> JJ: How to deal with it if the native environment does support it, but a framework like flutter does nt support it?
14:30:19 <Detlev> JJ: Saying it FAILS may incentivise platform developers to extend support
14:30:21 <JJ> q?
14:30:25 <Joe_Humbert> Q+
14:30:27 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:30:28 <quintinb> Topic 1: Ensuring that these get exposed by the accessibility tree is important for "programmatically determined"
14:30:28 <quintinb> Topic 2: I am also less likely to be considerate of cross platform, they need to support the native platform, not the other way around. The AT is native and XP needs to acknowledge the user, not the user the XP
14:31:43 <Jon_Gibbins> I feel we’re veering into the area of content versus user agent here (WCAG versus UUAG). Like WCAG/WCAG2ICT, we are likely to have to consider exceptions for third party software / cross-platform frameworks, etc.
14:31:44 <Jamie> +1 quintinb topic 2
14:32:04 <Detlev> quintinb: we can't sit and wait if some lazy platform does not support some attribute
14:32:06 <Jon_Gibbins> s/UUAG/UAAG/
14:32:24 <GleidsonRamos> I agree. We need to at least try to force the cross-platform techs to accomplish the criterias.
14:32:31 <JJ> q?
14:32:35 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:32:45 <Detlev> JJ: tends to be stricted and FAIL it to increase pressure on frameworks
14:32:54 <quintinb> I'm also just as critical of Google / Apple if they don't provide stuff, but XP needs to ensure it's up to date with the OS at least
14:33:30 <quintinb> +1 Jon_Gibbins re: WCAG versus UUAG
14:34:16 <Detlev> Jamie: Section 7 in WCAG is referenced in WCAG WCAG2ICT says applies as written; but we need to take a closer look to see if that id fine for us in the native app context. We are discussing variations already, so as written may not cut it. So we may need a change in the normative wording?
14:34:52 <Detlev> ...some of these items in sction 7 just don't appl yto th enative dv context
14:35:43 <Detlev> ...we may add a section like section 7 of WCAG that fits better
14:36:32 <Detlev> JJ: Seems strange that WCAG3ICT add a note linking to the same section that is not directly applicable to non-web
14:37:11 <Detlev> Jamie: so there could be a WCAG2ICT version of section 7 - and we should something that covers the mobile context
14:38:03 <Detlev> JJ: since we are non-normative we could create a link to a more appropriate understanding section
14:38:35 <JJ> ACTION: Decide how to deal with "WCAG 2 section Input Purposes for User Interface Components" and the WCAG2ICT (redundant) note
14:38:43 <JJ> q?
14:38:43 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:38:43 <Jamie> q+
14:39:40 <Detlev> Jon_Gibbins: We get more situations like that with mobile conditions - so it may need conditions or things like "until platforms.."
14:40:00 <Jamie> q-
14:41:31 <Detlev> ...is it a problem with AT or platforms so we may need something "Until platform  supports" .. we ca ncreate a vision but we need to be mindful at who has control here . devs may have no control so it would be out if scoe for them, because this is for peopl ecrating the software - so it may address other players like th eOSs makers, platform makers
14:41:31 <Detlev> etc.
14:42:05 <quintinb> Slippery slope to escaping regulation: "We did it in Flutter"
14:42:05 <Detlev> ...we should acknowledge that cross platform environments have their issues
14:42:38 <Detlev> JJ: harks back to our definitions, like keyboard interface
14:42:41 <Jamie> q+
14:42:58 <Joe_Humbert> q-
14:43:10 <Joe_Humbert> everyone else covered my comments
14:43:45 <Detlev> JJ: we need to be careful drafting definitions - different from HTML context where many things are already accessible
14:44:17 <Detlev> ...doing things in REACT it will be limiting, there is less control
14:44:30 <JJ> q?
14:44:33 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:44:34 <Jon_Gibbins> I wrote exceptions – I meant “conditions”. To sumarise for meeting notes: I feel we’re going to come up against situations on mobile a lot where cross-platform frameworks / platform software may not support something, but the focus for WCAG2Mobile should be on what the people creating native mobile apps have control over. In the past we’ve seen statements in SCs like “Until user agents…”.
14:45:19 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins - that also applies to 1.4.12 Text Spacing as Android/iOS currently don't offer such settings; but might in the future
14:45:58 <Jon_Gibbins> +1 on clarity of definitions. I’ve been doing work on definitions the last couple of weeks which is where my thought came from.
14:46:19 <Detlev> Jamie: Question about SC for language - can we modify the documentation referenced, or can we modify the SC itself (talking about 1.3.5)
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14:47:08 <quintinb> Back!
14:48:12 <Detlev> JJ: the idea is: If there is an input purpose that is listed in section 7, then provide programmatic identification. So if we shortn th elist it would exclude some input purposes
14:49:00 <Jon_Gibbins> “Until user agents…” statements are from the days of WCAG 1.0. The equivalent terminology in WCAG 2 I believe is “accessibility supported” https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-accessibility-supported
14:49:04 <Detlev> Jamie: Acknowledges that the context matters, not the exact keywords - we may need to brinf that back to the AGWG
14:50:00 <Detlev> JJ (writing action)
14:50:20 <JJ> ACTION: Check with AG WG and WCAG2ICT how they intended the Input Purposes section and why it's directly in WCAG(2ICT)
14:50:24 <JJ> q?
14:50:50 <Detlev> JJ: any further tasks for this SC?
14:51:03 <JJ> move to the next agendum
14:51:08 <JJ> Zakim, move to the next agendum
14:51:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'move to the next agendum', JJ
14:51:18 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:51:18 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.4 Resize Text -- taken up [from JJ]
14:51:45 <Detlev> JJ: Reads out WCAG text for 1.4.4
14:52:07 <Detlev> JJ: Reads out WCAG2ICT and note
14:52:45 <Detlev> JJ: note refers to platform options for text scaling (Zoom)
14:53:12 <Jamie> can we add "nonlinear scaling" to the terms list?
14:53:17 <Detlev> JJ: reads out note that some text may not scale fully to 200%
14:54:20 <Detlev> JJ: Side effect of replacement user agent > platform is that in native context the OS zoom function would be sufficient
14:55:07 <Detlev> JJ: Discussion in WCAG2ICT github, result is that OS zoom would pass
14:55:38 <quintinb> q+
14:55:43 <Detlev> ...Android scaling is not linear (large text scales less)
14:56:28 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:56:29 <quintinb> Does this mean that you can fix font sizes and as long as the magnifier service magnifies, that's acceptable?
14:56:32 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/3
14:56:59 <Detlev> JJ: So one of the issue is what can be exempted in native apps when text scaling
14:57:08 <Jamie> q+
14:57:32 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:57:35 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:57:36 <Detlev> JJ: We may need a note on large content viewer (iOS) as method tzo comply
14:57:45 <JJ> close the queue
14:57:49 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
14:57:50 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:58:41 <Detlev> Jamie: One issue in the wild is exceptions for some copmponents in mobile apps, some component types don't scale - we should cature what components can scale and what othe rcomponents can't
14:58:59 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:59:02 <Detlev> JJ: Yes we should point out thosde limitations
14:59:15 <Jon_Gibbins> +1 Jamie, although we need to be careful that behaviours may change rapidly, so should form part of non-normative text (e.g. understanding)
14:59:48 <Detlev> Joe_Humbert: We should be careful - the large content viewe in iOS has no equivalent in Android - so you may need an equivalent in Android
14:59:51 <Detlev> q+
14:59:56 <Detlev> q-
15:00:25 <Jon_Gibbins> Or perhaps such differences in support or behaviours can be in SC notes?
15:00:25 <Joe_Humbert> thank you Detlev for scribing
15:00:42 <quintinb> Thanks all, and especially Detlev for scribing!
15:00:46 <Detlev> WOnder it scaling issues would ever FAIL anything if OS zoom is considered sufficient...
15:00:48 <JJ> We might also need more emphasis on the scenarios mentioned in Understanding doc
15:03:09 <JJ> "Some user interface components that function as a label and require activation by the user to access content are not wide enough to accommodate the label's content. For example, in Web mail applications the subject column may not be wide enough to accommodate every possible subject header, but activating the subject header takes the user to the
15:03:09 <JJ> full message with the full subject header." https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/resize-text.html
15:18:52 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
15:18:56 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:19:23 <JJ> s/Tanja/Tanya/
15:19:37 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-matf-minutes.html JJ
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15:47:22 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:47:22 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-matf-actions.rdf :
15:47:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Decide how to deal with "WCAG 2 section Input Purposes for User Interface Components" and the WCAG2ICT (redundant) note [1]
15:47:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-matf-irc#T14-38-35
15:47:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Check with AG WG and WCAG2ICT how they intended the Input Purposes section and why it's directly in WCAG(2ICT) [2]
15:47:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/01/29-matf-irc#T14-50-20
15:47:25 <JJ> zakim, bye
15:47:25 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, Detlev, julianmka, quintinb, AlainVagner, Joe_Humbert, Karla, Jamie, Jon_Gibbins
15:47:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #matf