18:58:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:59:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-aria-apg-irc
18:59:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:59:02 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:59:02 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
18:59:08 <Jem> present+
18:59:11 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:59:19 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:03:50 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:03:53 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:03:56 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:04:01 <jugglinmike> present+ lola
19:04:25 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/January-28%2C-2025-Agenda
19:05:22 <jugglinmike> present+ daniel
19:07:57 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:08:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We may skip the topic on Ari's work since she isn't present today
19:08:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda?
19:09:15 <jugglinmike> [no requests]
19:09:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next meeting: February 4 (Tuesday, as normally scheduled)
19:09:42 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication planning
19:09:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The date will be February 25
19:10:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I haven't added anything new to the publication
19:10:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, that includes the high-contrast work and a fix which is later on in today's agenda
19:10:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The primary focus, though is, that high-contrast patch
19:10:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's all I have right now. Any questions or comments?
19:10:44 <jugglinmike> present+ jongunderson
19:10:56 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: did you want to try to get this landmark region work on that publication?
19:11:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I haven't reviewed it, yet, but we can definitely try. It's already on today's agenda
19:11:25 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 3194 - Grid and table properties practice editorial fix
19:11:33 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3194
19:11:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The change in this pull request seems good
19:11:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Adam noted that the problem exists elsewhere
19:11:56 <dmontalvo> present+
19:12:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems editorial because it's a misplaced ">" in the code example (not in executable code)
19:12:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Adam said the change here is good. He asked the person who wrote the PR if they could fix it in the other place where the problem occurs
19:14:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's been over a week, though, so I'm wondering if anyone here would like to push the fix
19:14:39 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I can help out, though I notice that this patch is the author's first contribution to the project. It might be nice to give them a little more time
19:15:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You're right, there's no rush here. Though if we push to their branch, they will still be recognized as a contributor
19:15:12 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:15:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the original contributor provides that fix before February 11th, great. If not, we'll have howard-e or someone else lend a hand on their branch
19:15:40 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 2991 - Practice Page for Supporting High Contrast
19:15:48 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991
19:16:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have been reviewing from the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about this topic
19:16:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It feels unclear to me. In some cases, if the author does nothing to support these settings, the content is still rendered fine.
19:17:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the case of increased contrast and high contrast modes, isn't it the case that if someone changes those settings, and the author does nothing, that content can disappear?
19:18:00 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: I think the current practice lacks an answer to "what should I do?" We can say, "you should at least do this if you want to comply with WCAG". The only thing we've done is try to comply with contrast themes (as implemented in Windows)
19:18:11 <siri> present+
19:18:29 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: Increased contrast seems to me like, kind of a "why do it?" issue. Unless you are trying to meet "contrast enhanced"...
19:19:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the end user goes to their operating system and chooses to increase contrast--if they visit a webpage where the author has done nothing to support that, then the web page will render without problems
19:19:24 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: Correct. If you don't support media queries, then the page renders as if the media queries were absent
19:19:53 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: I believe in our examples, if we didn't support high-contrast themes, you would just get the colors that the author originally specified
19:20:27 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: but it's complicated; it depends on how much your page is inheriting from the operating system and the browser's default settings
19:21:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is it the case, if you're using the author-specified colors, and somebody has chosen a Windows contrast theme--are there scenarios where, because of author-specified colors, that theme would cause content to not render in a perceivable way
19:21:20 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: that's definitely a possibility
19:21:35 <jugglinmike> Jem: Are you talking about operating system configuration changes?
19:22:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the user changes the OS scheme, and the author has specified colors without referencing the force-colors media query, the page may render in a way where the content is not perceivable
19:22:34 <jugglinmike> Jem: Are you talking about the case where the operating system overrides the color settings?
19:22:50 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: the browser changes its default stylesheet to a configuration that complies with the Windows theme
19:23:09 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: I wouldn't talk about overriding, exactly, because it is changing the default of the browser
19:23:32 <jugglinmike> Jem: When I studied the trusted [??], there was a role that could override the system settings
19:24:16 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: A lot of developers insert a "reset" stylesheet. They're saying, "I don't want the browser to tell me anything; I want to start with this base" So I don't think you can say the default stylesheet of the browser is an accessibility setting
19:25:20 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: In some of the ARIA meetings I attended a few years ago, we met with the CSS working group, and they stated that over half of the pages on the web (at that time) use reset stylesheet
19:25:39 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: None of this is specified, though, so I think the best recommendation we can make is that "you need to test"
19:26:16 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: What Microsoft, Google, Apple--whatever--decides to do with that information is I suppose their best guess at what their users want
19:26:29 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: Could there be problems with rendering if people enable them on the page? Yes
19:27:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should there be guidance on this page that says, "here are some really common problems which cause content to become imperceivable"
19:27:54 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: for "current color", that is an issue because you only get the color of the rendered text. If that color changes from black to white, and you have a white background, that content will disappear
19:28:25 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: "current color" to me is kind of a risky way to inherit these system colors
19:28:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should the recommendation to be not to do it that way?
19:28:54 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: Well then what should we do with all of our examples?
19:29:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm thinking in terms of, "there's a lot of stuff you could do; what happens if you don't do it?" If the answer is "nothing, really", then that's fine
19:29:51 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: I think we should say to avoid using "current color" for that particular reason. I would be willing to say that
19:30:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think making it really concrete... In so many places, you've done an answer job creating functional examples. I wonder if you'd like to just show the problem with "current color" in a concrete way
19:30:29 <jugglinmike> jongunderson: That could work
19:31:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have another question on the level-2 heading for the contrast themes. In the table above, we say "contrast themes aka high contrast mode". I wonder if we should do that in the heading as well
19:31:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's a common term, so I'm wondering if we should use the same wording in the heading
19:32:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's the heading for the section on "Contrast themes"
19:33:02 <Jem> https://deploy-preview-315--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/high-contrast/
19:33:06 <jugglinmike> Jem: If it makes the content clearer, then why not?
19:33:13 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
19:33:29 <Jem> https://deploy-preview-315--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/high-contrast/
19:33:37 <jugglinmike> s/jongunderson/jongund/g
19:33:42 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund
19:34:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is the second-to-last section on the page
19:36:00 <jugglinmike> jongund: As I recall, the Microsoft system settings talk about "high contrast themes"
19:36:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would like to be more friendly to a wider audience. The programmers can read the details
19:36:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm also thinking that in the one where we say "color screen light or dark", we could instead say "light or dark modes"
19:36:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I hear everyday people use those terms
19:36:46 <jugglinmike> jongund: Yeah, I think that's a good idea
19:37:09 <jugglinmike> Jem: We use the word "themes", not the word "mode". It doesn't matter much to me, though
19:37:56 <jugglinmike> present+ siri
19:38:08 <jugglinmike> siri: Whenever I hear "high contrast mode", that is the setting I see in Windows
19:38:19 <jugglinmike> siri: Slowly, we are moving away from that. We're moving towards "forced colors", etc.
19:38:31 <jugglinmike> siri: If we put "high contrast", some readers may get confused
19:38:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When I was looking at this in Windows, I thought it used the term "high contrast". Is that still the case today?
19:39:04 <jugglinmike> siri: This morning, my system was updated, and it no longer uses that term
19:40:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Windows is saying "contrast themes", and if I go to "contrast themes"... Hm.
19:40:19 <jugglinmike> siri: Only the older versions of Windows used the term "high contrast". Now, it is different
19:40:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Reviewing these, the names are "night sky", "dust", "desert", "aquatic", and "none". None of them even use the term "high contrast" in the name of the theme!
19:42:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well then, maybe we should completely remove "high contrast mode"
19:42:07 <jugglinmike> siri: That's what I was thinking
19:42:48 <jugglinmike> jongund: I don't think we should talk so much about "high contrast", either. I don't think it's accurate about what these settings do. They can be used to achieve high-contrast, but in and of themselves, they don't necessarily do that
19:43:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we just change the section title to "Supporting color contrast settings"?
19:43:03 <siri> +1
19:43:09 <jugglinmike> jongund: That would be more appropriate
19:43:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay! Any objections from anybody to changing the name of the practice?
19:43:31 <jugglinmike> Jem: no objection
19:43:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great! (This is going in a direction I didn't expect. I'm glad I asked!)
19:44:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, there are a couple places on this page where I think the way the page is displayed depends on the browser you are using. I don't think that's explicitly stated, though
19:44:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isn't it the case that what you see depends on what browser you use?
19:44:29 <jugglinmike> jongund: The only one I'm aware of is system colors
19:44:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, just system colors. So not "increased contrast examples? That one doesn't change?
19:44:56 <jugglinmike> jongund: We don't do anything to support increased contrast on our pages (other than tiny examples
19:45:04 <jugglinmike> s/examples/examples)/
19:46:45 <jugglinmike> jongund: Maybe on the "systems color" page. The only red flag is on Chrome, for accent color and accent color test, their default color is transparent. I could put a warning to say "use with caution because some browsers such as Chrome render this as transparent which may effect color contrast"
19:46:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, please add that
19:47:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I still feel like there are some aspects of system colors where I feel like we're not quite bringing people up to speed on what's happen
19:47:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But following today's discussion, I think I can make comments on specific lines in your page
19:47:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, that was a lot for this section. Any other questions or comments?
19:47:47 <jugglinmike> jongund: Just to be clear: you want me to add an example of where "current color" could cause problems?
19:48:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, explain exactly how things can disappear, and show an example
19:48:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you jongund. I will be making the other editorial changes that we discussed
19:48:26 <jugglinmike> topic: PR 3214 - Multi-thumb slider fix
19:48:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll skip this since Ari isn't here
19:48:49 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3214
19:48:54 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 3215 - Expandable region example
19:49:01 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3215
19:49:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This came up in the ARIA working group meeting
19:49:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is possibly the need for an example that is like a disclosure but which is distinct due to: a larger click target, a different example/collapse icon, and the mouse behavior.
19:50:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I hope I'm representing this well. We might want to have Scott give more input
19:50:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The description of this issue is, I believe, fairly complete
19:51:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This originally came up because people are nesting content inside of a button. You click the button, and the content appears. That of course is a problem, and it was suggested that the APG give a better alternative
19:51:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One of the requirements (which Scott does address) is that there is something visible which means "expand" and which would also be focusable
19:51:39 <jugglinmike> Jem: I like Scott's idea
19:51:49 <jugglinmike> Jem: Do you see any concerns about this proposal?
19:51:50 <jongund> https://codepen.io/scottohara/pen/ZYzRVmg
19:52:19 <jugglinmike> siri: My only concern is that the entire "card", if  you made it focusable, wouldn't that be too much for the screen reader?
19:52:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Scott said the "plus/minus" would be used by screen readers
19:53:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think they're talking about a larger chunk of content being clickable
19:53:27 <jugglinmike> jongund: In his example, he's showing partial text (the first paragraph of an article), and if you click, it expands to show all of the text
19:53:37 <jugglinmike> jongund: That's a pretty common patter that you see in a lot of websites
19:54:03 <jugglinmike> jongund: One of his examples has an "expand/collapse" button, and that's what becomes focusable
19:54:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the actual focus only on the "plus/minus" but it's only drawn around the entire card?
19:54:34 <jugglinmike> Jem: It's on the entire card
19:54:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The screen reader would describe the entire card, then, and that's a bad user experience
19:55:05 <jugglinmike> jongund: does the screen reader need to know anything? They have access to this regardless
19:55:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't want screen reader users to think that something is visible when it isn't (or vice-versa)
19:55:20 <Jem> https://codepen.io/scottohara/pen/ZYzRVmg
19:55:43 <jugglinmike> jongund: Okay, well, what if when you have a little box that's scrollable--does the screen reader know that there is scrollable content on the page?
19:55:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They don't have to know that, necessarily
19:56:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm always hoping that the part that I'm reading is visible to other people
19:59:54 <jugglinmike> siri: I just ran NVDA on this example. It is not reading the text when it isn't visible. When I get to the card, it reads the title of the card. It tells me the content is collapsed.
20:02:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the resolution as simple as turning Scott's example into an APG example?
20:02:24 <jugglinmike> jongund: I think it could be that straightforward
20:02:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's good, I think. I'll get this back on the agenda for next week so we can talk about next steps. It does seem like there's a practical path forward based on what's Scott's saying
20:03:10 <siri> also heading is narrated as clickable by NVDA
20:03:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I hear what you're saying, though, siri. I don't like the fact that you have to go backward, either
20:03:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, we're at time. We'll get to the landmarks issue next week
20:04:08 <jongund> present+ jongund
20:05:09 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:05:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jem, jugglinmike, Matt_King, howard-e, lola, daniel, jongunderson, dmontalvo, siri
20:05:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:05:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:05:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:05:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:05:48 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:05:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items