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15:27:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:27:44 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
15:28:04 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2025-01-28
15:28:13 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:28:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-ag-minutes.html Chuck
15:28:23 <Chuck> agenda+ Assertions and Best Practices https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/120#discussioncomment-11854616
15:28:35 <Chuck> zakim, clear agenda
15:28:35 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:28:40 <Chuck> agenda+ Assertions and Best Practices https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/120#discussioncomment-11854616
15:28:58 <Chuck> agenda+ Follow Up on Paths
15:29:09 <Chuck> agenda+ Subgroup working sessions
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15:37:50 <Chuck> regrets:  Todd Libby, Roberto Scano
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15:58:04 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:58:15 <ChrisLoiselle> Can only stay for 30 minutes as have conflicting customer call.
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16:02:29 <wendyreid> scribe+
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16:02:45 <wendyreid> Chuck: Hello everyone and welcome
16:02:50 <bruce_bailey> present+
16:02:57 <wendyreid> ... introductions, anyone new or with a new affiliation/role?
16:03:00 <Graham> present+
16:03:12 <AlinaV> AlinaV has joined #ag
16:03:27 <wendyreid> Melanie: Hi, Melanie Philipp, I formerly presented Deque, now with USAA as an invited expert
16:03:29 <AlinaV> present+
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16:04:13 <wendyreid> Jem: Hi, I have missed you all for a year, I work for University of Illinois, I co-facilitate the ARIA authoring group, and I'm an AC rep
16:04:15 <hdv> present+
16:04:23 <wendyreid> Chuck: Welcome back!
16:04:23 <sarahhorton> present+
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16:04:33 <wendyreid> Chuck: Announcements
16:04:36 <Rain> present+
16:04:48 <wendyreid> ... a couple of weeks ago we discussed hosting an onboarding call before the AGWG call
16:04:58 <wendyreid> ... we are going to have the first one next week, first meeting of Feb
16:05:08 <wendyreid> ... we'll send out an announcement, 30min before the AGWG call
16:05:12 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #ag
16:05:21 <wendyreid> ... MJ has agreed to run it, but asked for a chair to help facilitate
16:05:21 <DJ> MJ and I are cohosting
16:05:24 <Chuck> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iF_B77uZk9tEYXpdeVLR3Q-FmHw66611
16:05:25 <wendyreid> ... we are working on that
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16:05:32 <mbgower> present+
16:05:37 <wendyreid>  ... I pasted a link in IRC for our training materials
16:05:51 <jtoles> jtoles has joined #ag
16:05:54 <wendyreid> ... I've hosted and recorded an onboarding session in the past, content and recording is in the link as well
16:05:59 <wendyreid> ... any questions?
16:06:16 <wendyreid> kevin: Related to IRC dropping
16:06:26 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:06:27 <wendyreid> ... systeam worked out what was going on
16:06:33 <wendyreid> ... we have a solution which we will try
16:06:44 <wendyreid> ... will kick in starting thursday, related to our cloudflare services
16:06:52 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
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16:07:02 <Frankie> present+
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16:07:04 <wendyreid> ... if folks who have issues, pay attention after thursday, let systeam know
16:07:07 <maryjom> present+
16:07:15 <Gez> present+
16:07:27 <wendyreid> Chuck: Good news, looking forward to it
16:07:32 <wendyreid> kevin: Sorry its taken so long
16:07:33 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:07:48 <Chuck> ack Rah
16:07:50 <Chuck> ack Rac
16:07:52 <Chuck> ack bru
16:07:54 <wendyreid> bruce_bailey: Just checking that we're keeping the new client?
16:08:14 <wendyreid> kevin: Yes, this is specifically related to the lounge, there are other clients out there that handle the drops more effectively
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16:08:17 <wendyreid> ... like IRCCloud
16:08:28 <wendyreid> ... the lounge makes it difficult, so it's not ideal
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16:08:33 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
16:08:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Assertions and Best Practices https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/120#discussioncomment-11854616 -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:08:48 <wendyreid> Chuck: Starting with the agenda, first item, to discuss recommendations and best practices
16:08:57 <wendyreid> ... will be sharing my screen, let me know if there are any issues
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16:09:10 <SteveF> present+
16:09:11 <wendyreid> ... first thing I'd like to do is review a summary of the conversation in this issue
16:09:22 <wendyreid> ... go through some exemplars
16:09:30 <wendyreid> ... Rachael did a summary on Jan 16
16:10:17 <wendyreid> ... Gregg proposed recommendations, Shawn suggested Best Practices since recommendations is loaded, Jon suggested "Advisory Techniques"
16:10:26 <wendyreid> ... we've had a rich conversation about assertions
16:10:39 <wendyreid> ... differences between supplemental requirements, assertions, and best practices
16:10:45 <wendyreid> ... some people offered feedback
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16:11:41 <alastairc> scribe+
16:11:44 <wendyreid7> scribe+
16:11:57 <wendyreid7> Chuck: [continued reading off page]
16:12:11 <wendyreid7> ... Chris offered an analogy
16:12:18 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/120#discussioncomment-11855122
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16:12:48 <wendyreid7> ... based on basketball
16:13:10 <wendyreid7> ... Alastair also provided some examples
16:13:23 <wendyreid7> ... alt text requirement, non-decorative images require alt
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16:13:46 <wendyreid7> ... best practice, images part of a wrapper have no alt
16:14:04 <wendyreid7> ... further discussion of supplemental requirements
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16:14:19 <wendyreid7> ... these are examples that were part of the online discussion
16:14:25 <wendyreid7> ... any clarifications or comments?
16:14:26 <Detlev> present+
16:14:35 <wendyreid7> Chuck: Any questions?
16:14:38 <alastairc> q+ on how this relates to conformance
16:14:45 <Chuck> ack ala
16:14:45 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on how this relates to conformance
16:14:45 <wendyreid7> ... bruce_bailey I know you provided a lot of questions
16:14:54 <roldon_b> present+
16:14:57 <wendyreid7> alastairc: Just wanted to relate this to the conformance discussions at TPAC
16:15:05 <wendyreid7> ... foundational requirements in a decision tree
16:15:20 <wendyreid7> ... we've also got supplemental requirements, objectively testable, but part of scoring
16:15:31 <wendyreid7> ... meet foundational, and then add those to meet high levels of conformance
16:15:47 <wendyreid7> ... where I see best practices fitting in, you don't want it part of scoring, they're highly dependent on context
16:16:08 <wendyreid7> ... the example I gave was "in this specific scenario", but it would not be universally applicable
16:16:19 <wendyreid7> ... the difference with assertions is that they are more process-based
16:16:34 <wendyreid7> ... it's not something that a random third-party could confirm
16:16:41 <Chuck> q+ to ask about best practices and the decision tree
16:16:47 <wendyreid7> ... it's tied to the conformance, we'd not be using bestp ractices for scoring
16:16:53 <roldon_b> Hello, please excuse this late entry about this topic. However, I feel that “Best Practice” is something that is clearly based in evidence or an industry standard which can provide a benchmark. While a recommendation is a suggestion, if it isn’t suggesting evidence and what can be seen as a benchmark, it can’t have the title of “Best
16:16:53 <roldon_b> Practice”.
16:16:53 <wendyreid7> Chuck: Raises a question for me
16:17:10 <wendyreid7> ... best practices, where would they live? I don't think they belong in the decision tree
16:17:38 <wendyreid7> alastairc: The things we have been putting in the decision tree are things applicable to the scenario, they are all required, just helps form the scenario
16:18:06 <wendyreid7> ... but since we committed to a scoring mechanism for supplemental requirements, they can't go in the tree, it could be in a flat list outside of the tree
16:18:26 <wendyreid7> Chuck: What we're looking to decide here is whether we should include best practices
16:18:31 <wendyreid7> ... I haven't seen any objections
16:18:37 <wendyreid7> +1 to best practices
16:18:42 <Rachael> q+
16:18:45 <jtoles> q+
16:18:46 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:18:46 <wendyreid7> Chuck: Does anyone have any concerns about best practices
16:18:46 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask about best practices and the decision tree
16:18:48 <Chuck> ack rach
16:19:09 <wendyreid7> Rachael: I don't have a concern, I think we should include them, I am struggling with where they sit, they feel more method level than requirement lelve
16:19:19 <wendyreid7> ... and potentially better handled by assertions
16:19:27 <Chuck> ack jtoles
16:19:50 <alastairc> q+ to suggest we ask sub-groups to gather / mark things as best practices, see where they fit
16:19:58 <wendyreid7> jtoles: I don't have any concerns, I think they should be included, I work with people in education, they take it as "things you should be doing", whereas we understand it as "above and beyond"
16:20:09 <Chuck> ack ala
16:20:09 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to suggest we ask sub-groups to gather / mark things as best practices, see where they fit
16:20:10 <wendyreid7> ... it can be a point of confusion between people in accessibility vs outside of it
16:20:11 <bruce_bailey> +1 to Jon
16:20:28 <wendyreid7> alastairc: I would suggest we allow for sub-groups to mark things as best practices and see where they fit
16:20:29 <Rachael> +1 to Alastair's suggestion
16:20:31 <bruce_bailey> q+ to mention USAB "best practices" webinar series
16:20:37 <Chuck> q+ to address terminology
16:21:03 <wendyreid7> ... I'm fairly sure that we have had things we've discussed where we like it but it's not a requirement, but noting them down, we can work out where they might fit
16:21:11 <wendyreid7> ... potential for them to highly context-specific
16:21:26 <wendyreid7> ... on the terminology, I'd like to call them recommendations, but Shawn is right, it's a loaded term
16:21:36 <Chuck> ack bruce
16:21:36 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to mention USAB "best practices" webinar series
16:21:38 <wendyreid7> ... if anyone has a suggestion that doesn't clash, I'd love to hear it
16:21:46 <wendyreid7> bruce_bailey: +1 to jtoles' comment
16:22:01 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
16:22:02 <Chuck> ack Ch
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16:22:16 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:22:23 <wendyreid> Chuck: Another term is "advisory technique"
16:22:31 <bruce_bailey> s/+1 to Jon/+1 to John Toles
16:22:35 <wendyreid> ... lots of options, but they can be used for other purposes
16:22:45 <DJ> q+ to frame of reference
16:22:49 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:22:49 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to address terminology
16:22:54 <Chuck> ack DJ
16:22:54 <Zakim> DJ, you wanted to frame of reference
16:23:06 <wendyreid> DJ: Sticking to one term as a frame of reference, but we have 2 definitions right now
16:23:08 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
16:23:18 <wendyreid> ... we should first decide what we are talking about as a frame of reference
16:23:19 <Chuck> ack Chris
16:23:52 <wendyreid> ChrisLoiselle: What comes to mind is word soup, we have "recommendation" as in the document, but outside of W3C, when I'm thinking about best practice is the method to do something
16:23:58 <wendyreid> ... the method to accomplish a goal
16:24:10 <wendyreid> ... if we're in WCAG3 and we have the ability to reset where we're going
16:24:29 <alastairc> q+ on terminology, we're differentiating from 'requirements'.
16:24:32 <wendyreid> ... to DJ's point, understanding terms and how they are used, pinpointing how we want to use terms
16:24:51 <wendyreid> ... there's still a blur to the applicability of each and what you can use contextually
16:24:53 <wendyreid> q+
16:25:14 <wendyreid> alastairc: I think in this group, anything that improves accessibility that we can ask people to do will be a requirement
16:25:23 <Chuck> scribe+ Chuck
16:25:32 <wendyreid> ... these things are required but you don't have to do all of them, and these things are recommended
16:25:36 <wendyreid> ... thats the term I get stuck on
16:25:40 <Chuck> ack ala
16:25:40 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on terminology, we're differentiating from 'requirements'.
16:25:50 <wendyreid> ... for the moment as the people working on the content, there is this other bucket we can put things in
16:25:57 <DJ> scribe+
16:26:46 <DJ> wendyreid: we might define best practices differently from others, but i think we all have the same intentions
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16:26:58 <DJ> ... we want people to make things as accessible as possible
16:26:59 <Jennie_Delisi> I asked AI to give some options which differentiate between those which are requirements. Some options suggested included: situational recommendations, context-specific suggestions, recommended approaches, context-based recommendations
16:27:19 <DJ> ... by putting these in the document, we give people the tools to do that without requiring specific solutions
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16:27:39 <Chuck> q?
16:27:41 <kevin> q+ to mention explainer and doesn't need to be fixed in stone?
16:27:42 <DJ> ... i think having all that information in one place will be extremely helpful
16:27:44 <DJ> scribe: wendyreid
16:27:46 <Chuck> ack wendy
16:27:52 <wendyreid> kevin: A few thoughts
16:28:03 <Chuck> q+ for point of order
16:28:06 <Chuck> ack kevin
16:28:06 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to mention explainer and doesn't need to be fixed in stone?
16:28:08 <wendyreid> ... we don't necessarily need to carve a term in stone, we can agree to use best practice for now
16:28:27 <wendyreid> ... the key part mentioned in a few comments, being clear about our definitions in our explainer/introduction
16:28:34 <wendyreid> ... we can define how we use the term
16:28:36 <DJ> q+ to different term
16:28:39 <jtoles> q+
16:28:40 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:28:40 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to discuss point of order
16:29:06 <Chuck> ack DJ
16:29:06 <Zakim> DJ, you wanted to different term
16:29:06 <wendyreid> Chuck: point of order, chairs I am working on a resolution for this conversation since we're approaching consensus
16:29:32 <wendyreid> DJ: I agree with everyone, fully in favour of including this, I'd like to propose "suggested techniques" in order to avoid terms with other meanings
16:29:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Need to leave for a customer call. I will follow the minutes.
16:29:49 <Chuck> q?
16:29:49 <wendyreid> ... not requiring this solution, but accommodates other terms
16:29:53 <Chuck> ack jtoles
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16:30:19 <wendyreid> jtoles: We should definitely include best practice, and even use the term, we just need to clearly define it in the document to avoid confusion
16:31:03 <Chuck> q?
16:31:03 <wendyreid> ... a technique we have as a best practice, then trying to find another name, for example, controls should have text labels, but if not, here's some other things you can do that are acceptable
16:31:18 <Frankie> +1 to providing a plain text glossary item for "best practice" or whatever our selected term will be
16:31:26 <kevin> q+
16:31:26 <Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: We agree to allow for "best practices", sub-groups will collect things that fit the approach, and we will review those in a future meeting
16:31:27 <Glenda> present+
16:31:38 <wendyreid> Chuck: reads resolution
16:31:43 <wendyreid> +1
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16:31:44 <DJ> -1
16:31:45 <hdv> +1
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16:32:07 <wendyreid> kevin: Point of order, do we want to add in something about reviewing the terminology
16:32:07 <Detlev> +0 abstain
16:32:14 <ShawnT> +1
16:32:48 <Chuck> proposed RESOLUTION: We agree to allow for "best practices", sub-groups will collect things that fit the approach, and we will review those and the terminology in a future meeting
16:32:56 <Rachael> +1
16:32:59 <alastairc> +1, First thing will be - update to the sub-group handbook & template
16:33:01 <Laura_Carlson> +1
16:33:03 <DJ> +1
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16:33:05 <julierawe> +1
16:33:07 <Rain> +1
16:33:07 <sarahhorton> +1
16:33:09 <Makoto> +1
16:33:09 <Jennie_Delisi> +1
16:33:10 <Chuck> +1
16:33:10 <wendyreid8> scribe+
16:33:12 <kevin> +1
16:33:13 <AlinaV> +1
16:33:13 <Frankie> +1
16:33:13 <hdv> +1
16:33:14 <jtoles> +1
16:33:14 <wendyreid8> +1
16:33:19 <bruce_bailey> +1\
16:33:24 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Any objections?
16:33:24 <bruce_bailey> +1
16:33:29 <Azlan> +1
16:33:41 <Chuck> RESOLUTION: We agree to allow for "best practices", sub-groups will collect things that fit the approach, and we will review those and the terminology in a future meeting
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16:33:46 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
16:33:46 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Chuck
16:33:49 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:33:58 <Chuck> ack kevin
16:34:05 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
16:34:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Follow Up on Paths -- taken up [from Chuck]
16:34:12 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Follow up on pths
16:34:23 <wendyreid8> ... a funny thing happened on our way to running the subgroups last week
16:34:31 <wendyreid8> ... my group didn't have enough participation
16:34:46 <wendyreid8> ... people came back to the main room asking for materials to help define all the paths
16:34:54 <kevin> s/pths/paths
16:34:56 <wendyreid8> ... in between last week and this week, we've updated the handbook
16:35:14 <wendyreid8> ... and we have provided a link to a document that has some related content regarding the requirements
16:35:17 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ecg9qFIUVCUQfAPgNSEZ8MmsCSjbAynK8hbGBU8NrzQ/edit?gid=2035961492#gid=2035961492
16:35:23 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ByDvegN1EpA1rSWXPUAWmX_MGgXJlIgm/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs
16:35:26 <wendyreid8> ... first thing I would like to do is add the link to the handbook
16:35:35 <wendyreid8> ... spreadsheet and handbook link is in IRC
16:35:44 <wendyreid8> ... Rachael, you were updating the handbook, anything to cover?
16:35:59 <wendyreid8> Rachael: I'm not quite done, so expect more edits
16:36:05 <wendyreid8> ... we've added more structure
16:36:10 <wendyreid8> ... links to places you need to get to
16:36:18 <wendyreid8> ... hopefully this will be clearer
16:36:41 <wendyreid8> ... getting started is the hardest part, pulling the data you have, where to start, and moving forward
16:36:55 <wendyreid8> ... do recommend grabbing a chair if you have questions
16:37:08 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Want to highlight this link to the spreadsheet
16:37:17 <wendyreid8> ... Kevin put together this pathways doc
16:37:32 <wendyreid8> ... link to the requirements that helps guide the subgroup in defining and clarifying the requirement
16:37:38 <wendyreid8> ... most common question
16:37:59 <wendyreid8> ... I will ask for anyone participating in subgroups if they have any other questions you'd like to ask now
16:38:03 <wendyreid8> ... anything we haven't addressed?
16:38:08 <wendyreid8> q?
16:38:27 <wendyreid8> julierawe: One question about pathways, I was looking at this this morning
16:38:34 <Rachael> q+
16:38:35 <wendyreid8> ... it was looking like things have moved to different paths?
16:38:56 <wendyreid8> ... for example, things that were in organization and structure are now in plain language
16:38:57 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:39:11 <wendyreid8> Rachael: The organization of the pathways is not the organization of the document
16:39:30 <wendyreid8> ... mix of things like expertise needed, number of guidelines that are interrelated and connected
16:39:38 <wendyreid8> ... like grouping together COGA-related guidelines
16:39:52 <wendyreid8> ... trying to keep the same amount of guidelines in the paths
16:39:54 <Chuck> q+
16:40:03 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Did that answer your question?
16:40:07 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:40:08 <wendyreid8> julierawe: Still processing
16:40:26 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Wanted to add to that, this was an organizational exercise to try and focus our resources and knowledge
16:40:53 <wendyreid8> ... it does not necessarily represents the organization of the document, but an educated guess on the best groups of guidelines to tackle
16:41:16 <wendyreid8> ... as a subgroup does the work is free to create content or recommendations to address in other pathways or guidelines
16:41:19 <Chuck> q?
16:41:24 <wendyreid8> ... our best guess on how to start this task
16:41:32 <wendyreid8> Chuck: Any other questions?
16:41:52 <wendyreid8> ... we might be able to start subgroups early!
16:42:07 <wendyreid8> rrsagent, please make minutes
16:42:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-ag-minutes.html wendyreid8
16:42:15 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HQYuPuhDYJNJ_9RUgW3G3qMntEpFC7iwYvxBrnY4KMw/edit?gid=528192582#gid=528192582
16:42:33 <alastairc> q+ on update from sub-groups
16:42:39 <Chuck> ack ala
16:42:39 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on update from sub-groups
16:43:01 <wendyreid8> alastairc: So groups can prepare, from next week, we'll do a little update from each sub-group as to where you are in terms of status
16:43:06 <wendyreid8> ... so we can call keep tabs
16:43:10 <wendyreid8> ... also to check for overlap
16:43:45 <Azlan> q+ to say you can add me to the safety and deception group on that list
16:43:51 <wendyreid5> wendyreid5 has joined #ag
16:44:19 <Detlev> we had an input meeting last week!
16:44:32 <wendyreid5> rrsagent, please make minutes
16:44:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-ag-minutes.html wendyreid5
16:44:40 <bruce_bailey> Yes, Keyboard subgroup transitioned to Inputs starting last week
16:44:40 <alastairc> Detlev - in the tuesday meeting
16:44:40 <alastairc> Detlev - in the tuesday meeting?
16:44:45 <Detlev> yes
16:44:49 <Chuck> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HQYuPuhDYJNJ_9RUgW3G3qMntEpFC7iwYvxBrnY4KMw/edit?gid=528192582#gid=528192582
16:45:14 <alastairc> Hmm, I don't have access, that probably isn't in the right folder?
16:46:44 <Rachael> See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ecg9qFIUVCUQfAPgNSEZ8MmsCSjbAynK8hbGBU8NrzQ/edit?gid=912588073#gid=912588073
16:51:07 <Francis_Storr> chuck - I think your subgroup spreadsheet is an out of date duplicate. If you look at the Group Members tab of the Pathways For WCAG 3 document, you can more up to date info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ecg9qFIUVCUQfAPgNSEZ8MmsCSjbAynK8hbGBU8NrzQ/edit?gid=912588073#gid=912588073
18:01:46 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/28-ag-minutes.html alastairc
20:10:01 <kirkwood_> kirkwood_ has joined #AG