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07:15:06 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-star
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14:49:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-irc
14:50:32 <AndyS> Meeting: RDF-star SemanticsTF
14:51:29 <AndyS> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/59c97770-65f5-4c46-9d03-86fb61ff2bbc/20250124T100000/#agenda
14:51:30 <agendabot> AndyS, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/59c97770-65f5-4c46-9d03-86fb61ff2bbc/20250124T100000/#agenda
14:51:37 <AndyS> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/59c97770-65f5-4c46-9d03-86fb61ff2bbc/20250124T100000/
14:51:37 <agendabot> AndyS, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/59c97770-65f5-4c46-9d03-86fb61ff2bbc/20250124T100000/
14:51:48 <AndyS> zakim, agenda
14:51:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', AndyS
14:52:14 <AndyS> agendabot, help
14:52:14 <agendabot> AndyS, I am an instance of AgendaBot 0.5. For detailed help, type "help COMMAND", where COMMAND is one of invite, agenda, find, suggest, accept, this is, forget, status or bye. Or go to https://w3c.github.io/AgendaBot/manual.html
14:53:07 <AndyS> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
14:53:18 <AndyS> rrsagent, make minutes public
14:53:18 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AndyS.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:53:27 <AndyS> rrsagent, make public
14:53:27 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', AndyS.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:53:48 <AndyS> rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:17 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
14:58:19 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:00:09 <AndyS> agenda?
15:00:51 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
15:00:56 <enrico> present+
15:00:58 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
15:01:05 <pfps> present+
15:01:12 <tl> present+
15:01:16 <pchampin> present+
15:03:01 <AndyS> present+
15:03:49 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
15:03:55 <niklasl> present+
15:04:07 <TallTed> present+
15:04:12 <AndyS> zakim, next item
15:04:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Discuss on the open issues and PR related to semantics in the RDF-semantics document -- taken up [from AndyS]
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:05:46 <AndyS> zakim, agenda- 2
15:05:46 <Zakim> agendum 2, Discuss on the open issues and PR related to semantics in the RDF-semantics document, dropped
15:06:29 <AndyS> zakim, agenda+ Discuss on the open issues and PR related to semantics in the RDF-concepts document
15:06:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:06:40 <AndyS> agenda?
15:06:54 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/01/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:06:54 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/01/30-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:06:54 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
15:07:03 <doerthe> present+
15:08:04 <AndyS> q+ to ask if this definition of triple term is written done (in public) yet
15:08:43 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
15:08:48 <Souri> present+
15:08:57 <doerthe> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69
15:08:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69 -> Issue 69 modification to new semantics to permit entailment that every triple term is a proposition (by pfps)
15:08:59 <AndyS> s/done/down/
15:11:38 <enrico> q?
15:11:57 <AndyS> Oh.
15:12:38 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69
15:12:46 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/71
15:12:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/71 -> Issue 71 Fixing the definition of instance of a graph to consider triple terms (by franconi) [spec:substantive]
15:13:00 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22
15:13:36 <tl> q+
15:14:11 <AndyS> ack AndyS
15:14:11 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if this definition of triple term is written done (in public) yet
15:14:47 <enrico> ack tl
15:15:29 <niklasl> q+
15:15:54 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22#rdfs-semantics
15:16:16 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/49
15:16:16 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/49 -> Issue 49 Define an interpretation of Triple Terms (by niklasl) [needs discussion]
15:16:37 <doerthe> q+
15:18:50 <AndyS> The "RDFS entailment for SPARQL" should be defined to have finite answers
15:19:08 <doerthe> but we are defining a calculus here
15:19:27 <AndyS> (a requirement of all entailment regimes)
15:19:27 <doerthe> it should be complete
15:20:43 <niklasl> rdf:_1 a rdf:Property # ...
15:20:55 <doerthe> question is rather is "s p o" entailed
15:21:17 <enrico> ack niklasl
15:21:41 <enrico> q+
15:21:42 <AndyS> quite - this is not the SPARQL doc on enailment regimes. this is RDF processors being accessed by SPARQL not SPARQL processors.
15:22:24 <enrico> yes, AndyS
15:22:35 <enrico> ack doerthe
15:23:35 <niklasl> Right, rdf:type is in RDF entailment.
15:26:05 <AndyS> q-
15:26:32 <pchampin> q+ to point out that, if the predicate of triple terms are required to be properties, then <<( s p o )>> a rdfs:Proposition can not be inferred for arbitrary s,p,o (from the empty graph)
15:26:52 <niklasl> IMHO, a triple term where the predicate does not denote a property is not a proposition; it does not exist -- i.e.it is nonsensical.
15:28:42 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/68
15:28:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/68 -> Pull Request 68 Add simple semantics to RDF-semantics (by franconi) [propose closing] [spec:substantive]
15:29:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:31:27 <enrico> ack enrico
15:32:06 <enrico> to niklasl 😱
15:33:39 <AndyS> Are there any general purposed & extant SPARQL engine implementing entailment regimes? (for getting through W3C process)
15:33:57 <enrico> q?
15:34:03 <enrico> ack pchampin
15:34:03 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to point out that, if the predicate of triple terms are required to be properties, then <<( s p o )>> a rdfs:Proposition can not be inferred for arbitrary
15:34:06 <Zakim> ... s,p,o (from the empty graph)
15:34:23 <tl> q+
15:35:26 <tl> q-
15:35:34 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69#issuecomment-2606696672
15:35:34 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69 -> Issue 69 modification to new semantics to permit entailment that every triple term is a proposition (by pfps)
15:37:45 <enrico> We agree with the proposal at https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69#issuecomment-2606696672
15:38:03 <enrico> +1
15:38:05 <niklasl> +1
15:38:40 <doerthe> +1
15:38:50 <AndyS> enrico: RE is total.
15:39:07 <pfps> +1
15:39:28 <AndyS> ... implicit - always says "partial" if it is not total
15:39:38 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/69#issuecomment-2606696672
15:39:49 <enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22#rdfs-semantics
15:40:20 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22/d8f94f1bf4551ea7f5135f37f468a64cef0e684d
15:41:09 <niklasl> the blank node trick?
15:44:50 <TallTed> I would prefer that nothing be implicit; that we say explicitly whatever we want others to infer
15:46:21 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql12-entailment/
15:46:22 <pfps> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql12-entailment/#RIFFiniteAnswers
15:48:08 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql12-entailment/#RDFSEntRegime
15:50:15 <enrico> Q?
15:50:21 <Souri> Would the correct answer from SPARQL be finite for { ?s rdf:type rdfs:Resource } given an empty RDF graph?
15:53:07 <AndyS> Souri - SPARQL is based simple entailment together with a matching step - here, empty graph means results in zero rows.
15:59:54 <enrico> From https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22#rdfs-semantics: we accept rdfs14, and we will have in appendix A its approximation in the strict syntax
16:00:34 <niklasl> +1
16:01:01 <tl> +1
16:01:01 <AndyS> Link to rdfs14: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22liberal-baseline%22#rdfs-semantics::~:text=S%20RDFS%20entails-,rdfs14,-xxx%20rdf%3Atype
16:01:12 <doerthe> +1
16:03:16 <enrico> complete entailment patterns for RDFS:
16:03:16 <enrico> rdfs4a-ts, rdfs4b-ts, rdfs14
16:03:25 <enrico> Approximated entailment patterns in appendix A:
16:03:26 <enrico> if the triple structure appears in S
16:03:26 <enrico> sss aaa <<(xxx yyy zzz)>>
16:03:26 <enrico> then S RDFS entails
16:03:27 <enrico> sss aaa _:b.
16:03:27 <enrico> _:b rdf:type rdfs:Proposition.
16:05:02 <enrico> we do not make any claim about completeness
16:05:18 <enrico> at this point. Hopefully somebody will prove it
16:07:40 <pfps> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment/issues/37
16:07:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment/issues/37 -> Issue 37 inifinite results in entailment regimes (by pfps) [spec:editorial]
16:12:21 <enrico> q?
16:12:43 <doerthe> If you don't give a shit about metamodelling, you dan't care about the domain of RE being IRxIRxIR ;) because the IP is only used for metamodelling
16:13:26 <Souri> s/shit/sh*t/
16:13:38 <Souri> s/dan't/don't/
16:14:04 <tl> i'm all for nesting - i.e. i find it really useful at least 2 levels deep -, and since implementations seem to have had no problem implementing it for RDF* i don't see why we should think about dropping this feature
16:15:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:23:22 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/71
16:23:23 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/71 -> Issue 71 Fixing the definition of instance of a graph to consider triple terms (by franconi) [spec:substantive]
16:23:29 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/144
16:23:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/144 -> Issue 144 the term identity comparison must be defined for triple terms (by lisp)
16:24:23 <AndyS> As PFPS says - no choice points/backtracking.
16:24:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/150 -> Issue 150 Nature / role of triples (by pchampin)
16:25:20 <AndyS> As RDF terms bnode are concrete. Semantcis may wish to write entailment equivalent.
16:33:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:34:08 <TallTed> s/Semantcis/Semantics/
16:34:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:36:34 <doerthe> q+
16:38:43 <AndyS> ack doerthe
16:39:05 <niklasl> q+
16:39:13 <enrico> ack niklasl
16:39:52 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/150
16:40:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:43:10 <niklasl> The semantics now contain "he interpretation of triple terms" and "ground triple term"; may need to be looked at?
16:43:22 <AndyS> zakim, end meeting
16:43:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pchampin, ktk, Dominik_T, enrico, pfps, niklasl, gkellogg, TallTed, james, gtw, AndyS, ora, tl, eBremer, doerthe, AZ, Souri
16:43:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:43:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:43:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:43:33 <niklasl> ... *if* 150 is decided.
16:43:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:43:40 <AndyS> rrsagent, excuse us
16:43:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:47:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:47:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-irc
16:48:34 <TallTed> s/contain "he interpretation/contain "the interpretation/
16:48:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/24-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:50:13 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
16:50:23 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:50:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
16:50:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items