14:58:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:58:36 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/23-wcag2ict-irc
14:58:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:58:37 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:58:40 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:58:40 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:58:48 <maryjom> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
14:59:00 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:59:08 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:59:08 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:59:12 <maryjom> agenda+ Announcements
15:00:27 <maryjom> agenda+ WCAG2ICT Issues/PRs status update
15:00:38 <maryjom> agenda+ Analysis of potential tech-specific Notes
15:00:50 <maryjom> agenda+ Analysis of potential normative language changes
15:01:04 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:01:18 <maryjom> agenda+ Develop WCAG2ICT "Explainer" Content
15:01:24 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
15:01:24 <shadi> shadi has joined #wcag2ict
15:01:29 <PhilDay> present+
15:01:43 <shadi> present+
15:02:59 <loicmn> loicmn has joined #wcag2ict
15:03:17 <maryjom> present+
15:03:31 <LauraM> LauraM has joined #WCAG2ICT
15:03:37 <LauraM> present+
15:03:43 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
15:03:52 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:03:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:03:59 <dmontalvo> present- dmontalvo
15:04:00 <loicmn> present+
15:04:06 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
15:04:19 <PhilDay> Work statement has received no comments from AG WG.
15:04:34 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
15:04:52 <PhilDay> They don't have to approve it - the chairs do that. Chairs have a number of work statements to approve - so will set aside time to get to this tomorrow.
15:05:17 <PhilDay> The AG WG chairs suggested we should continue assuming it will be approved.
15:05:28 <Devanshu> present+
15:06:02 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:06:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG2ICT Issues/PRs status update -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:06:19 <PhilDay> Few open issues - created by Mitch
15:06:28 <PhilDay> Also have a new issue from JJ
15:06:37 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues
15:06:46 <PhilDay> New one from JJ: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/612
15:07:09 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/602 Editors will take care of this - adding Changelog
15:07:17 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/605
15:07:41 <PhilDay> Would be good to have somebody self-assign to this issue - 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value: clarify that non-web software does not have a user agent
15:08:04 <PhilDay> Chris is working on https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/606
15:09:05 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/607 Implement appropriate editorial changes from WCAG 2.2 update into WCAG2ICT
15:09:19 <maryjom> Issue 580: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/580
15:09:27 <PhilDay> Mary Jo had an earlier issue that listed all the changes https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/580
15:09:49 <PhilDay> #607 will be the proposed changes to content
15:10:19 <PhilDay> Editors will work through the list and make changes where they are applicable to WCAG2ICT. Editors will then implement the changes
15:10:42 <PhilDay> #611 will close soon (AG WG comments)
15:10:57 <PhilDay> New one from JJ: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/612. 2.5.7 Dragging Movements - "underlying platform software" vs "user agent or platform software"
15:11:13 <PhilDay> Please can somebody take this issue up and propose content?
15:11:35 <PhilDay> To recap, we need people to take up #612 and #606
15:12:04 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:12:04 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Analysis of potential tech-specific Notes -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:12:41 <PhilDay> Items that are in our expanded scope. May need a sub group to complete some analysis and bring back to the wider TF.
15:13:30 <PhilDay> Making technology-specific notes - may not be needed for all SCs but could be useful for some. As an example, Mobile TF have developed some for mobile. Analysis should include looking at this to see if we can incorporate.
15:14:07 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
15:14:21 <PhilDay> Mary Jo asked Daniel to help setup a Google Drive space so we can share content in a more accessible manner to just using Google Docs on the web. May need some spreadsheets.
15:14:24 <PhilDay> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:15:29 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: Mobile TF are using WCAG2ICT template items to help them to update. May be helpful to have somebody from mobile TF to take part as a listener to WCAG2ICT calls so can input and make sure we stay in sync between the 2 groups
15:16:00 <PhilDay> maryjom: Single source of truth for interpretation would be best.
15:16:41 <PhilDay> Mary Jo / Chris to speak with JJ on this and agree a way to collaborate
15:17:11 <PhilDay> Sam also had suggestions on technology specific areas.
15:17:25 <PhilDay> Does anyone have interest in helping with this task
15:17:31 <PhilDay> s/task/task?
15:17:49 <PhilDay> Sam agreed to participate (not currently in IRC)
15:17:57 <LauraM> Q+
15:18:02 <PhilDay> ack LauraM
15:18:27 <PhilDay> LauraM: Is this more of a technical area? Unsure whether to participate.
15:18:53 <PhilDay> LauraM happy to help if it would be beneficial
15:19:13 <PhilDay> q+ to ask if we have a list of the likely technologies to be covered
15:19:29 <PhilDay> ack PhilDay
15:19:29 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to ask if we have a list of the likely technologies to be covered
15:20:18 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
15:20:27 <PhilDay> PhilDay: Suggested a draft list of technologies might help people to know if they can participate.
15:20:31 <mitch11> present+
15:20:47 <PhilDay> New technologies such as VR / AR. Do WCAG apply? How can they be supported?
15:21:18 <mitch11> q+
15:21:20 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
15:21:33 <PhilDay> ack mitch11
15:21:41 <LauraM> have to jump, apologies but message me with your thoughts on how I can contribute.
15:21:42 <PhilDay> ack mitch
15:22:02 <PhilDay> mitch11: Have looked at possible ways of applying WCAG to XR.
15:22:13 <PhilDay> mitch11: What was the context of the question?
15:22:33 <PhilDay> Part of the expanded scope is to add any technology-specific notes to existing content.
15:22:37 <ChrisLoiselle> do we want to reach out to editors within https://www.w3.org/TR/xaur/ to add issues they see in terms of wcag2ict or is that our remit to review that and add to wcag2ict in silo?
15:23:14 <PhilDay> mitch11: To avoid scope - it could be modalities of interaction rather than specific technology.
15:23:55 <PhilDay> mitch11: Then further distinguish between specific platforms (e.g. Android) vs. content technologies (e.g. development platforms within Windows).
15:23:58 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:24:19 <PhilDay> mitch11: Let's try and limit the scope - not take on all possible technologies
15:24:29 <PhilDay> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:24:33 <Sam> present+
15:24:33 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:24:36 <Sam> q+
15:24:39 <loicmn> q+ to suggest that an initial list could come from European Accessibility Act
15:24:54 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: W3C XAUR task force -editors of that working group note may have useful input.
15:25:08 <PhilDay> ... Or we could look at their documents as a source
15:26:03 <PhilDay> XAUR came from APA working group, they have partnered with us in the past to do some analysis.
15:26:13 <maryjom> q?
15:26:13 <PhilDay> First step is to read the XAUR document and see if it would help.
15:26:28 <maryjom> ack sam
15:26:28 <PhilDay> Mary Jo to review document
15:27:07 <PhilDay> Sam: Areas of high importance. Medical devices. Emergency response software. May be useful to call out
15:27:54 <PhilDay> Sam: They are called out in EN 301 549 - including the software that runs on devices like this or informs people.
15:28:23 <PhilDay> These devices need to support accessible technology, or offer methods of use that are accessible.
15:28:51 <PhilDay> Not sure if we have anyone in the TF who has relevant experience in this area.
15:28:59 <maryjom> ack loic
15:28:59 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to suggest that an initial list could come from European Accessibility Act
15:29:36 <PhilDay> loicmn: Initial list of technologies could come from EAA. Personal computers. Telecoms terminals. Self service terminals. Media terminals
15:30:59 <PhilDay> loicmn: Working on product categories is not a good idea -there is a lot of overlap. Should look at what the technology offers, ways it can be used, rather than just the tech (e.g. smartphone can be used as a variety of different products such as e-reader, media terminal, etc.
15:32:18 <PhilDay> Mary Jo to email those who volunteered to start the analysis
15:32:46 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:32:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Analysis of potential normative language changes -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:33:36 <ChrisLoiselle> For reference, we mention Examples of technology that may have closed functionality include but are not limited to and then list out certain items within wcag2ict in that section
15:34:07 <PhilDay> This was another expansion of the scope. Only for a few SCs - that either don't apply (e.g. sets of...) or EN does apply, but we didn't.
15:34:23 <PhilDay> Technology that can support this SC...
15:34:43 <PhilDay> Also need to work on language for CSS pixels - find an alternative verbiage for non-web
15:35:36 <mitch11> q+
15:36:07 <PhilDay> ack mitch11
15:37:03 <PhilDay> mitch11: Like the idea of having a section on that. Not a very long list
15:37:48 <PhilDay> Resize text as an example - web applies all the time. Non-web we wouldn't say never apply, but rather it depends for this type of tech
15:38:33 <PhilDay> 2nd analysis requires going through SCs to see which fall into this category of tweaking normative language
15:40:05 <PhilDay> These 2 areas will probably have spreadsheets setup. If you have some thoughts or notes on either area please add them in
15:40:17 <PhilDay> q?
15:40:21 <mitch11> q-
15:40:34 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
15:40:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Develop WCAG2ICT "Explainer" Content -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:40:45 <PhilDay> Work on the explainer
15:41:12 <PhilDay> [maryjo opening window to share in zoom]
15:41:41 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyei09Viby1bCoZnDLYwY9VWpzRvteK9pqt4v9sWCJE/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.wlcptmhola14
15:41:51 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyei09Viby1bCoZnDLYwY9VWpzRvteK9pqt4v9sWCJE/edit?usp=sharing
15:42:33 <PhilDay> Mary Jo worked on What WCAG2ICT Does Not Do
15:42:51 <PhilDay> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyei09Viby1bCoZnDLYwY9VWpzRvteK9pqt4v9sWCJE/edit?tab=t.0
15:43:11 <PhilDay> Took notes from WCAG2ICT for out of scope, then modified them slightly
15:44:49 <PhilDay> Sam: are we talking about how to achieve it?
15:44:55 <mitch11> q+
15:45:03 <PhilDay> We are not talking about how to meet
15:45:31 <PhilDay> ack mitch11
15:45:31 <maryjom> ack mitch
15:46:18 <PhilDay> mitch11: There is a distinction between not applying WCAG to hardware. But WCAG does imply the existence of hardware (e.g. keyboard, screen). We do have some language that relates to hardware (e.g. colour contrast is function of screen content, but also the display hardware).
15:47:11 <ChrisLoiselle> We may want to rephrase This document does not comment on hardware aspects of products, because the basic constructs on which WCAG 2 is built do not apply to these. As this is currently in the note
15:47:24 <PhilDay> Sam: If you can meet 200% with platform AT, or hardware - we won't assume that all the means to meet it are required. Don't need multiple solutions.
15:47:38 <PhilDay> s/need/always need/
15:47:38 <mitch11> q-
15:47:44 <ChrisLoiselle> q+
15:49:42 <ChrisLoiselle> also https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#set-of-software-programs talks to hardware software combos to a degree, so perhaps elaborating this?
15:50:05 <ChrisLoiselle> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#dfn-assistive-technologies
15:51:00 <PhilDay> You may have an IOT device like a thermostat; you can control it with your phone. Device may not be fully accessible on it's own, but you can operate it with your smartphone - which could be an accessible alternative.
15:51:14 <maryjom> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:51:14 <PhilDay> ack ChrisLoiselle
15:52:05 <PhilDay> ChrisLoiselle: May want to rephrase "document does not comment on hardware...". Some SCs may include mention of hardware. May just need more context in the note.
15:52:31 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to brevity
15:53:33 <PhilDay> Sam: You may be able to meet the intent of some SCs with a combination of hardware and software - is this helpful?
15:53:49 <PhilDay> maryjom: We don't comment on combinations of hardware/software to say how you meet.
15:54:59 <PhilDay> mitch11 added a bullet: There can be ways of improving accessibility without technically meeting an SC, called “functional performance” in other standards. Example: an adaptive hardware add-on. These can be a great idea but WCAG2ICT only deals with technical conformance.
15:56:00 <PhilDay> We may also need to discuss what constitutes an accessible alternative - e.g. is a smartphone an alternative to a thermostat
15:57:00 <PhilDay> smartphone not an alternative as defined in WCAG - as it has to be accessed through the inaccessible interface - which may not be possible.
15:57:28 <PhilDay> But it could provide a useful alternative / addition / complement in the real world
15:59:25 <PhilDay> We shall continue working on these topics in the explainer. Thanks to all who have contributed so far. Feel free to add to the google doc.
15:59:31 <PhilDay> Sam: Are people going to CSUN?
15:59:38 <Sam> i am going
16:00:02 <PhilDay> Sam, Shadi, Mary Jo are going
16:00:30 <PhilDay> Thanks all.
16:00:48 <PhilDay> More draft content if you have time - just add your thoughts. Also pickup any open issues.
16:00:50 <PhilDay> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
16:01:18 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
16:01:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisLoiselle, PhilDay, shadi, maryjom, LauraM, loicmn, Daniel, Devanshu, mitch, Sam
16:01:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
16:01:28 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:01:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
16:02:00 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
16:02:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items