13:53:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:53:40 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/22-matf-irc
13:53:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:53:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:53:43 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF January 22, 2025
13:53:43 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:53:53 <JJ> Meeting: MATF January 22, 2025
13:53:58 <JJ> chair+
13:54:13 <JJ> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile update
13:54:19 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum)
13:54:27 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.6 Consistent Help
13:54:33 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.1 Info and Relationships
13:57:23 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:59:26 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
14:00:03 <JJ> regrets+ quintinb
14:00:14 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
14:00:17 <JJ> regrets+ GleidsonRamos
14:00:57 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
14:01:19 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
14:01:21 <Tim> present+
14:01:44 <Illai> present+
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14:04:02 <RacheleD> present+
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14:04:55 <Detlev> present+
14:05:03 <Karla> present+
14:06:08 <JJ> Jamie: providing update about the WCAG2Mobile document, mentioning the almost-complete status for most sections in the background / introduction categories
14:06:26 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
14:07:10 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:07:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WCAG2Mobile update -- taken up [from JJ]
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14:07:18 <JJ> Jamie: providing update about the WCAG2Mobile document, mentioning the almost-complete status for most sections in the background / introduction categories
14:07:21 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:07:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
14:07:27 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:07:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
14:07:28 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:07:28 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
14:07:44 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
14:07:55 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:07:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
14:07:58 <Jamie> present+
14:08:59 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.5.8 Touch Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
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14:11:29 <julianmka> present+
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14:14:59 <Illai> q+
14:15:05 <julianmka> JJ: Summarizes previous discussion, including previous conversation about pixel conversion between platforms, exceptions outlined in 2.5.8, and the conflict between this SC and guidelines from Google and Apple.
14:15:07 <JJ> ack Illai
14:15:44 <julianmka> Illai: How do we deal with user agents and even platforms, given that there are cross-platform mobile app technologies?
14:16:07 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
14:16:13 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#platform-software
14:17:39 <JJ> platform software -> operating system? How to deal with cross-platform frameworks that have their own 'software' runtimes on top of native runtimes
14:17:46 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:17:47 <julianmka> JJ: We have an open issue for defining user agent in Github, but nothing for platform yet. Shared platform definition in WCAG2ICT
14:18:35 <JJ> ACTION: Provide key term for Platform Software / Cross-platform Frameworks
14:18:43 <julianmka> Jon_Gibbins: We also don't have a definition of cross-platform frameworks. We should provide a key term for this.
14:19:37 <Illai> +1
14:19:45 <julianmka> JJ: How are we dealing with the "equivalent" exception in 2.5.8? Should the equivalent option be on the same page or screen?
14:20:16 <julianmka> q+
14:20:19 <JJ> Poll: for 2.5.8, substitute "on the same page" with "on the same view/screen" instead of "in the same software"?
14:20:30 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:22:40 <JJ> julianmka: An app with a deeplink to account settings, the account setting screen has a sufficient sized button; would it be acceptable if the deeplink would be too small?
14:22:50 <Detlev> q+
14:24:13 <JJ> ack Detlev
14:25:26 <Tim> +1
14:25:27 <Megan_Pletzer> +1
14:25:28 <Karla> +1
14:25:30 <Illai> +1
14:25:32 <RacheleD> +1
14:25:39 <Jon_Gibbins> +1
14:25:43 <julianmka> 0
14:25:47 <Detlev> +1
14:26:01 <Jamie> +1
14:26:29 <Jon_Gibbins> Note: the nearest equivalent term in WCAG2ICT is “viewport”. I’ve noted that we need a definition for “view” or “screen”. I will try to develop some rationale for our next call.
14:26:32 <Detlev> q+
14:26:42 <JJ> ACTION: Substitute "on the same page" with "on the same view/screen" instead of "in the same software" - double check if apps would be unable to pass this SC by limiting to screen instead of app level
14:26:44 <JJ> ack Detlev
14:27:04 <JJ> +1 (from Joe_Humbert)
14:27:56 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
14:28:06 <julianmka> Detlev: Do we have a clear stance on just aligning with WCAG2ICT versus going above and beyond?
14:29:22 <julianmka> JJ: In this case, WCAG2ICT replaced "same page" with "software" -- switching to "screen" is consistent with the original SC language/intent
14:29:43 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11
14:31:47 <julianmka> JJ: The AGWG has a new subgroup since November that is working to define "view" as a common definition for guidance.
14:32:39 <julianmka> JJ: The new version of the European standard is also looking to deviate from WCAG2ICT "set of pages/software programs"
14:33:34 <JJ> ACTION: Double check substituting webpage with software, write down which SC's would be affected
14:33:59 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:33:59 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
14:34:02 <JJ> q?
14:34:05 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:36:17 <Jon_Gibbins> I’ll put comments in that GH issue
14:36:57 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:36:57 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 3.2.6 Consistent Help -- taken up [from JJ]
14:37:44 <JJ> This SC has already moved into the drafting status
14:37:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:37:48 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, JJ
14:37:55 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:37:55 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, JJ
14:38:47 <julianmka> JJ: Noted that 3.2.6 is already in drafting status.
14:41:57 <Illai> q+
14:42:03 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:42:03 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
14:42:06 <JJ> ack Illai
14:42:07 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:42:07 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 1.3.1 Info and Relationships -- taken up [from JJ]
14:42:48 <julianmka> JJ: Summarized previous discussion and ideas for guidance captured in the Github issue (#1)
14:42:55 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/1
14:43:33 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:45:23 <julianmka> Illai: On web there is standardization for custom elements and how their constituent parts work together. On mobile, we have multiple platforms/frameworks that implement these relationships differently. How do we convey guidance on this at a high level?
14:47:30 <julianmka> JJ: Reviewing original SC language and definitions. Emphasis that this SC is part of the perceivable principle.
14:48:16 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
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14:48:56 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert: I agree with Illai that it would be great to have such guidance but I'm not sure if it's possible. The web standards are at least somewhat open, whereas iOS and Android are more closed.
14:50:17 <Illai> q+
14:51:08 <JJ> ack Illai
14:51:56 <julianmka> Illai: How would we test? Different platforms or frameworks will produce different output from assistive technology.
14:52:03 <julianmka> ...there might be a barrier in testing for this Sc.
14:52:12 <julianmka> s/Sc/SC
14:53:57 <Joe_Humbert> Illai I think we might be able to address your concerns (in the future) with techniques documents that include how to test on iOS/Android/React/others
14:54:29 <JJ> How do we deal with paragraph navigation?
14:54:43 <julianmka> JJ: How much should developers code to mirror the visual layout? E.g. multiple paragraph elements
14:56:44 <julianmka> ...The difficulty in this SC is how to test and how to fix it.
14:56:48 <julianmka> q+
14:57:51 <JJ> ack julianmka
14:57:52 <julianmka> JJ: What other kind of definitions might we need to help clarify this SC? Add a note about information, structure, relationships?
14:58:53 <JJ> julianmka: in mobile apps, you can usually overcome 1.3.1 by following mobile best practices
14:59:05 <JJ> Zakim, close the queue
14:59:05 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:59:08 <Jon_Gibbins> I feel those terms (information, structure, relationships) may be a little too generic to pin down here in definitions of key terms. It’s something we may need to address on an SC by SC basis?
14:59:37 <Jamie> +1 @Julian
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14:59:58 <Jamie> +1 julianmka
15:00:19 <Joe_Humbert> +1
15:00:58 <JJ> ACTION: Add note about following mobile best practices (and write down what these would be)
15:01:12 <julianmka> julianmka: A lot of pain in testing 1.3.1 can be mitigated by following good mobile design practices. It's much harder to build apps accessibly when you're shoving web conventions into a mobile app context.
15:03:43 <JJ> scribe: julianmka
15:04:03 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/22-matf-minutes.html JJ