17:47:18 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:47:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/01/16-aria-irc 17:47:23 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:47:24 Meeting: ARIA WG 17:47:42 Agendabot, find agenda 17:47:42 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:47:42 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20250116T130000/ 17:47:42 clear agenda 17:47:42 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4292JxS 17:47:43 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-01-09+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues 17:47:46 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 17:47:48 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates - Content Visibility next Thursday, January 23rd 17:47:51 agenda+ Rejoin working group if you haven't already 17:47:54 agenda+ -> Descendants of buttons with "Children Presentational: True"? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1174 17:47:57 agenda+ -> Clarify use case for aria-selected for 'grid' role descendants https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2403 17:48:00 agenda+ -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402 17:48:04 agenda+ -> [accname] Explicitly state UAs must ignore “aria-label” for slots https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2385 17:48:07 agenda+ -> [AriaNotify] Naming for the priority property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2333 17:48:10 agenda+ -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303 17:48:13 Regrets+ 17:48:46 Chair: spectranaut 17:58:57 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 17:59:49 Zakim, leave 17:59:49 Zakim has left #aria 17:59:49 Zakim has joined #aria 17:59:52 zakim, start meeting 17:59:52 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:59:54 Meeting: ARIA WG 18:00:04 chair: ValerieYoung 18:00:14 agenda? 18:00:19 agendabot, find agenda 18:00:19 spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute... 18:00:19 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20250116T130000/ 18:00:19 clear agenda 18:00:19 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4292JxS 18:00:20 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-01-09+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues 18:00:23 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 18:00:25 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates - Content Visibility next Thursday, January 23rd 18:00:29 agenda+ Rejoin working group if you haven't already 18:00:31 agenda+ -> Descendants of buttons with "Children Presentational: True"? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1174 18:00:34 agenda+ -> Clarify use case for aria-selected for 'grid' role descendants https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2403 18:00:37 agenda+ -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402 18:00:41 agenda+ -> [accname] Explicitly state UAs must ignore “aria-label” for slots https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2385 18:00:44 agenda+ -> [AriaNotify] Naming for the priority property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2333 18:00:47 agenda+ -> 9.3 Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution does not consider custom element use cases https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2303 18:00:57 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 18:01:01 Adam_Page has joined #aria 18:01:03 katez has joined #aria 18:01:49 StefanS has joined #aria 18:02:10 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 18:02:11 present+ 18:02:26 scribe: hdv 18:02:28 present+ 18:02:32 alisonmaher has joined #aria 18:02:33 present+ 18:02:35 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 18:02:37 present+ 18:02:43 present+ 18:02:44 present+ 18:02:54 Zakim, next item 18:02:54 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4292JxS -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:03:01 scott has joined #aria 18:03:02 present+ 18:03:21 present+ 18:03:31 present+ 18:03:34 spectranaut_: we've got one from dmontalvo 18:03:54 dmontalvo: yes, patrt of it seems to work now will continue teesting 18:04:00 spectranaut_: next one is aria/2411 18:04:19 spectranaut_: it's on editors agenda 18:04:42 present- dmontalvo 18:04:44 spectranaut_: next one is html-aam/573 18:04:48 present+ Daniel 18:04:56 pkra has joined #aria 18:05:00 spectranaut_: from Rahim. This is moving along the goal to have CSS AAM information 18:05:06 present+ 18:05:18 Rahim: now woulld be a good time to start adding guidance in there 18:05:25 Rahim: we've been working on this 18:05:52 scott: to add to that, anybody who's got anything to add to the plan Rahim put together, feel free to add to this 18:06:03 Zakim, take up next please 18:06:03 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-01-09+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:06:24 lola has joined #aria 18:06:26 spectranaut_: only one that we talked about next 18:06:30 Zakim, close this item 18:06:30 agendum 2 closed 18:06:31 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:06:31 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot] 18:06:32 present + 18:06:35 Zakim, next item please 18:06:35 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:06:42 present+ 18:06:53 s/next/last time 18:06:54 Matt_King has joined #aria 18:07:02 present+ 18:07:05 spectranaut_: I think James Craig already taook a look at most of these. 18:07:09 sarah has joined #aria 18:07:13 present+ 18:07:19 spectranaut_: first one, web-platform-tests #50045 is related to the first item on agenda for today 18:07:43 spectranaut_: #50004 is related to content visibility, will talk about at the deep dive next week 18:08:02 giacomo-petri: I added a summary of what browsers are currently doing 18:08:21 spectranaut_: anyone interested, feel free to review before deep dive 18:09:08 scott has joined #aria 18:09:40 Zakim, take up next please 18:09:40 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates - Content Visibility next Thursday, January 23rd -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:10:00 siri has joined #aria 18:10:14 Zakim, take up item 3 18:10:14 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:10:34 jcraig: did you discuss the one that I mentioned on the ARIA editors slack? 18:10:49 spectranaut_: is it an interop issue? 18:10:58 jcraig: was a new issue on WPT that I wanted some feedback on 18:11:10 Zakim, take up next item 18:11:10 agendum 3 was just opened, hdv 18:11:18 Zakim, close this item 18:11:18 agendum 3 closed 18:11:19 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:11:19 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates - Content Visibility next Thursday, January 23rd [from agendabot] 18:11:20 Zakim, take up next item 18:11:20 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates - Content Visibility next Thursday, January 23rd -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:11:37 spectranaut_: we'll have a deep dive in the hour before this meeting next week 18:11:42 jocelyntran has joined #aria 18:11:52 spectranaut_: are there other deep dives anyone wants to schedule? 18:11:55 spectranaut_: sounds like not 18:11:57 Zakim, take up next item 18:11:57 agendum 4 was just opened, hdv 18:12:02 Zakim, close this item 18:12:02 agendum 4 closed 18:12:03 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:12:03 5. Rejoin working group if you haven't already [from agendabot] 18:12:04 Zakim, take up next item 18:12:05 agendum 5 -- Rejoin working group if you haven't already -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:12:22 spectranaut_: this is a reminder to rejoin the working group 18:12:25 spectranaut_: seems most have done that 18:12:28 q+ 18:12:49 Matt_King: it's not the individuals but the organisations? 18:13:09 dmontalvo: first the organisation/AC they nominate and then you can rejoin 18:13:18 dmontalvo: and IEs rejoin 18:13:37 lola: as an IE, when I tried to rejoin it didn't seem to work 18:13:58 ack lola 18:14:00 dmontalvo: I can check with you offline, lola, I have to do something manually 18:14:03 Zakim, take up next item please 18:14:03 agendum 6 -- -> Descendants of buttons with "Children Presentational: True"? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1174 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:14:08 Summer has joined #aria 18:14:43 spectranaut_: this is an old issue that recently got agenda'd back, scott or aaron do you want to intro tihs? 18:14:57 Tests: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/50045 18:15:03 aaron: Firefox doesn't cut subtrees in buttons 18:15:09 present+ 18:15:27 aaron: sometimes people put role=button… a use case I saw was a schedulingblock in a calendar, that was marked as expanded=false, then you can navigate to the button and it expands all the info inside 18:15:46 aaron: bit weird, but I saw it twice. It seems like a bad practice in general to remove content, and then users can't get to stuff 18:15:57 s/was a new issue on WPT that I wanted some feedback on/was a new issue on WPT that I wanted some feedback on from scott / 18:16:10 aaron: better for us to leave it down to the screenreader. So that it's more of an authoring req to have presentational children than a UA req 18:16:18 s/was a new issue on WPT that I wanted some feedback on from scott /was a new issue on WPT that I wanted some feedback on from scott, melanie, and bryan/ 18:16:39 matt_king: do you mean authors go in and mark role presenttation? 18:16:52 aaron: would be that we won't have interactive children inside of a button 18:17:01 Matt_King: I think we have that already? 18:17:29 aaron: I'm not very strict about this… I think it needs to be enforced on authoring tools layer 18:17:52 spectranaut_: do you want to describe test you wrote giacomo-petri ? 18:18:24 giacomo-petri: I added an example with an HTML button where I injected an inner button within the outer button. The first one doesn't have conflict because both buttons are not focusable because they are divs with role=button 18:18:51 giacomo-petri: in the second one, it's native HTML buttons, focusable by default, triggers the resolution for presentational roles 18:19:06 giacomo-petri: should be exposed as a button role even if inside another button 18:19:09 giacomo-petri: does that make sense? 18:19:37 q+ 18:19:40 jcraig: to me yes as I reviewed it. I did add ac omment re readability of the test 18:20:03 jcraig: not sure if results are product of the test or of a bug 18:20:11 q+ matt 18:20:17 ack sarah 18:20:57 sarah: we talked about this idea of having a content model type spec, with phrasing content first and other things like aria actions… would that make sense here to get rid of children presentational? I hear the idea this works in browsers, but wouldn't say it actually works-works 18:21:29 sarah: eg a heading would be announced as 'heading,button'… if you have a button in a button would you even know it's a button if everything is announced as one? 18:21:39 ack Matt_King 18:21:40 q+ 18:22:13 ack matt 18:22:57 Matt_King: I'm thinking a lot about parents… there's a tension between two scenarios. The people approach. When people code something and it sortof works and people don't know it's only sortof, they don't get a signal from what's exposed to them in the accessibility tree or tools they use 18:23:05 aaronlev has joined #aria 18:23:12 q+ 18:23:25 Matt_King: feels like a tension between being able to give enough signal that what you've done is lousy but kind of works vs that you've actually done something good and it does work 18:23:46 ack scott 18:23:52 q+ 18:24:15 scott: to address what Matt and Sarah said… if we looked at this as a repair, and stronger author guidance…maybe that's a good way to split the difference 18:24:44 scott: I've talked to Aaron about this a number of time… obviously it is better to expose something than nothing if authors have done the wrong thing. Not-ideal is better than completely blocked 18:25:44 scott: but to Sarah and Matt's points… people do make mistakes in practice. If we could update the spec to note that this is absolutely an author error, people shouldn't do this, but that browsers may mitigate the author error 18:26:07 Matt_King: but authors probably won't look at the spec, can't browsers add errors? 18:26:22 scott: browsers do have console errors, and tools like axe-core can find and flag these things\ 18:26:27 s/things\/things 18:26:32 scott: checkers define this 18:26:40 Matt_King: does it do anything in the accessibility tree view in the browsers? 18:26:46 Matt_King: seems like that's one of the only places people look 18:27:01 scott: don't think browsers do anything right now to say anything is wrong 18:27:04 Aaron: I think Edge does 18:27:05 ack aaronlev 18:27:25 Aaron: it puts red squigly llines in the DOM view if there's a11y errors 18:27:44 Aaron: we're going to try and convince the Chrome dev tools to include something like htat 18:28:06 Aaron: something jcraig mentioned once, if something is invisible for screenreaders, it shouldn't render for visual folks either 18:28:11 Matt_King: would be great 18:28:20 aaron: but ARIA doesn't affect pixels 18:28:57 aaronlev: there should be some way of handling the use case I mentioned, not sure what it is. Like an expandable reason that actsl ike a button 18:29:39 regrets+ 18:29:40 aaronlev: it's like a region that the Enter key can toggle 18:29:48 Matt_King: you need something focusable or discernable for that 18:29:50 s/but ARIA doesn't affect pixels/but ARIA doesn't affect pixels (visible rendering in browsers)/ 18:30:23 aaronlev: our job is to make it possible for people to make it accessible 18:30:33 Matt_King: there's something that indicates to a mouse user that it can be clicked? 18:30:55 scott: I think there's probably something that can be done… but probably not our job, to Aaron's point, to tell people what to do exactly 18:31:10 q? 18:31:10 scott: not sure if it should go in APG but we can add it somewhere 18:31:15 q+ 18:31:41 q+ bryan 18:32:12 ack jcraig 18:32:33 jcraig: everytime Matt and I talked about this over the years, it reminds me the original argument was XHTML vs HTML… if you used XHTML with strict rendering, the entire page wouldn't load, which I'd say is one of the main reasons XHTML faild 18:32:37 s/faild/failed 18:32:47 jcraig: you were looking for the word draconian :) 18:33:30 jcraig: we can't control it such that something that doesn't work for AT users also doesn't work for visual users 18:33:45 jcraig: doesn't fit with priority of constituencies, would make authors frustrated 18:34:06 jcraig: I think there's lots of opportunities to flag issues to authors. But preventing from working is something W3C gave up on a 1,5 decade ago 18:34:11 ack pkra 18:34:42 pkra: to get a better understanding of the pattern Aaron was describing… the region that can be expanded upon clicking? 18:34:46 q+ 18:35:03 ack bryan 18:35:03 aaronlev: I think scott played with it more … I understand we need JAWS to work with it but NVDA worked kind of okay? 18:35:32 bryan: re the parent role… I've seen this quite a bit over the past few years… like on one site there was a shopping cart , a web region that had a bunch of buttons like increment and decrement 18:36:40 bryan: especially in virtual cursor view, there is no point to have a button, is there a way to negate the effect of the parent role and simply ignore it? 18:36:44 ack Matt_King 18:37:01 Matt_King: I think we should ask that question, Bryan. As you were describing the scenario… I had the same thought 18:37:39 Matt_King: I wanted to clarify to jcraig, am not asking for anything… in HTML it's easy for anybody to make a mistake in the code that causes the page to not work properly. Lots of easy mistakes one can make 18:37:57 Matt_King: eg you can leave off a closing quote of an href 18:38:08 Matt_King: I'm not suggesting anything unusual 18:38:35 jcraig: was re if something doesn't work for screenreaders shouldn't work visually either 18:39:14 Matt_King: would make this equal 18:39:33 jcraig: maybe compromise could be some kind of heuristic like the ones we've been adding to various places in recent tiems 18:39:37 s/tiems/times 18:39:56 jcraig: as long as we phrase it carefully I'm open to it 18:40:08 Matt_King: agree, I think that's a repair where the heuristics are part of the spec 18:40:15 q? 18:40:26 jcraig: a significant portion of the HTML spec is repair 18:40:45 spectranaut_: are we closer to next steps? 18:40:48 aaronlev: further 18:41:23 aaronlev: I'm saying spec should be updated to reflect reality 18:41:53 spectranaut_: does anyone disagree that spec should follow what majority of browsers do? 18:42:02 q+ 18:42:12 bryan: I'd like to see it cancel out the role 18:42:21 q- 18:42:28 q+ 18:42:53 spectranaut_: possible resolution couldbe to change spec to match the browser and make sure there is author guidance 18:42:58 ack scott 18:43:47 scott: I agree with that… understand the reason for these updates. I think if we can add strong author mustnot's, indicate to authors they're not doing the right thing, I'll file an issue with APG to add it there. Not sure what else we can do at this point 18:44:09 Matt_King: I would oppose only changing presentational children, would be insufficient 18:44:13 scott: we'd also add that it's a mustnot 18:44:19 Matt_King: without any other browser req at all? 18:44:40 Matt_King: is there a UA SHOULD requirement that should go in there? 18:44:43 scott: not opposed to that 18:45:31 bryan: one of the issues with this type of control, when you arrow into it, something that says button… same as with skip links… you get insufficient user interactions 18:46:36 Zakim, take up next item 18:46:36 agendum 7 -- -> Clarify use case for aria-selected for 'grid' role descendants https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2403 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:46:51 spectranaut_: this is a new issue from last week 18:47:44 spectranaut_: It's about a way to select columns and rows in a grid. Should we clarify this before we discuss, did anyone read it differently? 18:48:08 spectranaut_: suggestion is aria-column-selected, aria-role-selected 18:48:35 sarah: was supposed to respond, I think this is not a good idea 18:49:14 sarah: if anyone thinks it's not not a good idea, do feel free to share before I respond 18:49:27 Zakim, take up next item please 18:49:27 agendum 8 -- -> Should the 'row' role really be necessary for parents of 'gridcell' and other cell role elements? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2402 -- taken up [from 18:49:30 ... agendabot] 18:49:46 spectranaut_: this is request that row is not a required parent of grid cell 18:50:57 Matt_King: is there some parallel to this in HTML tables? where you don't need trs? 18:51:03 scott: no 18:51:23 jcraig: can do without row groups 18:51:46 jcraig: this could be another set of repairs… if it's just one row… a grid with three cells 18:52:12 q? 18:52:29 Matt_King: this seems to be about visual presentation not semantics 18:52:40 jcraig: they're talking about CSS grid layouts and media queries 18:53:36 scott: fwiw in the previous discussion there was some discussion of aria-rowindex 18:54:01 jcraig: we're kind of forcing people to remove and append child to different rows and create them on the fly as opposed to changing a few attributes 18:54:25 q+ 18:55:09 Matt_King: in tree grids we don't need any kind of row and specify level? 18:55:11 ack sarah 18:55:41 sarah: I tested tree and it works fine without groups… if you sert aria pos set size explicitly. Has anyone tested what happens if you set the indexes for every individual cell? 18:56:00 jcraig: seems like a reasonable request to me 18:56:48 spectranaut_: test cases seems like a reasonable next step? 18:57:07 scott: I engaged before, can reply and ask for test cases 18:57:20 Zakim, take up next 18:57:20 agendum 9 -- -> [accname] Explicitly state UAs must ignore “aria-label” for slots https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2385 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:57:39 Zakim, close item 18:57:39 I don't understand 'close item', hdv 18:57:50 https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-accessibility/issues/165 18:58:10 Zakim, close this item 18:58:10 agendum 9 closed 18:58:11 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:58:11 10. -> [AriaNotify] Naming for the priority property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2333 [from agendabot] 18:58:30 topic: Write tests for input elements supplying name by aria-labelledby 18:58:50 jcraig: I don't think I've seen this use case 18:58:53 scott: it's come up a few times in the past for me 18:59:18 scott: had a thing that was named by something… seems like something that can be worked around 18:59:37 scott: like something that someone could have pointed to with an ID, there's usually a way 18:59:57 jcraig: was also wondering due to update prefs… eg label outside of current document scope 19:00:06 scott: don't see why we wouldn't do this 19:00:12 q+ 19:00:15 q- 19:00:16 jcraig: maybe circular ref 19:00:35 present+ 19:00:40 RRSAgent, make minutes please 19:00:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/01/16-aria-minutes.html hdv